[Camiona]

gee aaron sorry to do that to you!

I know a few obnoxious psia trained instructors but I also know a heckuva lot of the pretty cool ones too. Dunno anything about Aspen Extreme, so I can't relate there.

I am sure you can make your own educated decision

Lauren

 

[kayakArkansas]

I'm headed to the boat Friday...hoping to get lucky with another 18" like they just had. If not, there's a hot tub anyway.[/quote]

Gettin lucky w/ another 18"??? Don't you think you're overexaggerating?



--ZW

 

[tony]

What happened to learning the old fashioned way? My buddy and I joined a kayak club because they would teach us to roll in a pool for only 20 bucks. We pooled for five sessions then went on the spring break deso grey trip and swam the first riffle. Then I found a boat and so did he and we went kayaking on the Poudre in a snowstorm without drytops or neoprene. Needless to say we swam alot that first year (and the second) but we learned our rolls cause we were sick of swimming. Sure I have picked up some great tips from many other boaters (Gary being one). I think there are some merits to the no lesson method. I learned several important lessons the hard way (witch works best for me). I have also evolved my style organically. Meaning as I progressed and ran different and harder water I had to learn to keep up with my decisions. Ususally when I have someone telling me to lean forward, keep my elbow in, etc. I suck. But when I put myself into a situation that requires learning it just kinda happens, or I get trashed. Dont get me wrong I still made every attempt to make smart decisions, but wrong decisions can really help you learn. I had a lot of carnage learning that way and I am sure I have some bad habits that a lesson could help fix, but I wouldn't trade the way I learned for anything. I guess what I am saying is all of the focus on this post has been about taking lessons, but kayaking is an adventure sport and my favorite adventure has been learning and hopefully will be forever.

 

[kayakArkansas]

I tend to agree with Tony. I have been paddling for about 16 years and when I first started learning I had two instructors, my dad and his best friend Wayne. Both were accomplished paddlers in their own right and both taught me a love for the water that few probablly have. They also taught me to respect the river and taught me to make good decisions. They allowed me to push myself (keep in mind I was about 5 when I started boating....maybe 6) as much as I felt comfortable and made every class 2 rapid that I got excited about out to be a big deal. Because to me it was. After a couple of years of swimming a lot and enjoying the fun of carnage, I began to progress more and more. Once I hit my teens the testosterone eventually kicked in and I began to outpaddle the old men just b/c I had less regard for my own body. I now paddle class V on a very regular basis, feel very safe on almost everything I do, almost being the key word. And I feel like I have decent technique. I also have the ability to think clearly when the shit hits the fan because I have had it happen so many times that I know what to do...I haven't sat around all day theorizing about what to do in every situation, but I have experienced many situations that no class will ever accurately teach. My techniques may not be picture perfect and I would love to take an ACA class and learn new things. I think taking a class now would probablly be very beneficial just to focus on the more minute points. But I guess after all this jabbering what it boils down to is kayaking is a sport based on experience. You can only progress as you experience more and more of what the sport has to offer. You may take a class and learn some basics and think that you know it all (like many of my buddies who are still relatively new to the sport) and huck yourself off of nice big clean drops and feel like you're a revolutionary or on the cutting edge....but the truth is, eventually the shits gonna hit the fan, whether you're a class V boater or a class III boater, stuff happens....And it's always a bit commical to me when someone who has boated for a couple years,,,,already pushing the creeking envelope b/c they haven't had a good butt kickin, gets good and worked and has no idea what to do....As long as they're not hurt that is. It's just amazing how the water can humble a person. Anyway, enough babble,,,,,Classes are great....the old way is great....why not combine the two and never forget the main key....JUST GET ON THE FREAKING WATER!!!!!

--ZW

 

[Guest]

i think the best way to learn to kayak is to spend lots, and i mean LOTS of time on the water, beginning with spending LOTS of time on flat water figuring shit out. its kinda like baby steps, you don't just go from laying on you tummy and lifting your head up to walking. you mave to build muscles and muscle memory. learn to control your boat with not so many variables. it takes more than 1 day. i think it really helps if you are already comfortable in your boat when you hit the river for the first time. lots and lots and lots of lake time during the week, river trip on the weekend, then back to the lake during the week. this was my stragity when i started boating and i think it really helped. just give this system a month, then hit the river every day. what it boils down to is spend lots of time in your boat and lots of time on the water. using this system i was able to run my first V- rapid only 6 months after starting to boat.( it was oceana on the tallulah in Ga., and yes i was white nuckled with eyes as big as quarters)

another think that really helps is a real "go for it" attitude. when on the water go for it. don't be an eddie flower, jump in and get it. you can't let fear run your life.

surround your self with really good paddlers. go to the play spot and "go for it". when the dawgs see you are putting forth effort ther will encourage you and somewhat mentor you(worked for me).

i am in the "never had a lesson" group so i can't really evaluate instruction, but i do feel these are things that *most* classes can't give you.

mostly you just have to really, really want it.

just my .02 cents
cheers,
shagg

 

[gh]

Oceana seems to be more about balls than skill so obviously you have some. Kudos to you.

 

[kayakArkansas]

I'm w/ gh on the Oceana bit...not a lot of practice involved for sliding semi-outta control and trying not to scrape your face off...Shaggy...what is an 'eddie flower'???

--ZW

 

[Guest]

arkansas,
an eddie flower is someone in their pretty colored boat , in their bright drytop and shiny helmet just sitting in the eddie not attempting to play.

agreed on oceania, it was my first REALLY big rapid. just ran it in my playboat for the first time a couple of weekends ago, it was so much fun in a tiny boat.

anyways, sorry about the mini hijack, back to the instuction talk.............

cheers,
shagg

 

[kayakArkansas]

Wasn't trying to rag on Oceana Shagg....it's a big daddy....I just hear a lot of boaters who aren't very good in the grand shceme of things just b/c they've bagged Oceana......Not that that's you!! Congrats on the play boat run....I like my toes arranged the way they are so I don't think I'll be dropping Oceana in my playboat anytime soon but we'll see Cheers!!

--ZW

 

[Guest]

arkansas,
didn't have to worry about the toes, im a C-1er.

cheers,
shagg

 

[azpaddler]

To those that took a kayak class, or just anyone.

Should more emphasis be put on self rescue/ SWR during the first few lessons of a Kayaking Class?

Should Classes be longer, more structured, more steps offered with less emphasis on getting the roll on the first try, maybe a session using paddle floats and goggles as aids to muscle memory, instead of as a last resort?

Should people be discouraged from teaching their friends the basic skills needed in kayaking? Leaving it to people with teaching skills and a proven method? “Read that” shops/Instructors.

Should there be a dry land theory/video class before the pool/lake?

Or is it fine the way it is?

After teaching SCUBA for 20+ years and watching the structure/style of the class change over time I am seeing many similar parallels to the way kayaking is taught.

I would like to hear for any kayak Instructors out there.

And feel free to rip on me also.....

As an ACA certified instructor, there are certain things i like to do with my class:

First off, i teach basic wet exits as the absolute first thing when the student gets in his boat. Then i move on to teaching basic paddle strokes, t-rescues, and braces/leans in that order(<--- all on a lake/pond). Then afterwards, i teach river features and basic throw bagging and self rescue.
Then we move on to basic river manuvers: Peel outs, Ferrying, and Eddy Turns. We do sometimes do basic theory on these maneuvers in the classroom, but it depends on the class and how quickly they've picked everything else up.

Personally, for rolls i dont really have them try to get it right away, taht's senseless, that discourages them way too quickly. I try to get the fundamentals solid first: good setup and good technique. then we try to do the roll. I believe that paddle floats and goggles are wonderful tools and shouldnt be left as a last resort.

If friends feel confident enough in teaching the basics, i dont feel it will harm anything, but they need to be confident enough in their teaching abilities that when the student recieves all the teaching they will be learned enough that they wont kill themselves on the river.

That's my two cents

Alex

 

[tboner]

you know with the rate of inflation, your 2 cents would have been worth a couple of bucks back in 2005 when the questions was asked...

 

[paddlebizzle]

you know with the rate of inflation, your 2 cents would have been worth a couple of bucks back in 2005 when the questions was asked...

Oh snap!

 

[azpaddler]

you know with the rate of inflation, your 2 cents would have been worth a couple of bucks back in 2005 when the questions was asked...

Wow, you're a real witty one. but as it turns out, i just joined this year, so get over it....

 

[N. Wigston]

can't believe i missed this one for so long. if anyone is still looking at it, I have to agree with the original post. safety and rescue should be taught early, but started slow. Beginners should become comfortable with self rescue, then start to learn basic boat and gear rescue, then learn about scouting and setting safety for rapids. So many beginners and intermediates have spent their entire time kayaking hearing these words before every rapid " Just follow me". This is nice because it is faster, but the learning kayaker never learns to scout a rapid for themselves, which also means they never learn to read water, set safety, etc. etc. etc.

So I urge all kayakers to scout more when you are learning, it will seriously help to learn how to read water.

At Downstream Edge, we believe in series of short private or small group lessons as the best way to learn and get good at kayaking. We teach paddling skills as well as develop a solid basis for safety and rescue. Our students are much more capable of running rivers after a series of lessons from us than they would be from a weekend lake/river class from a standard kayak school. It's because students have time to practice and work on things before they move on to the next step, instead of trying to cram everything in to one day or weekend. I have noticed much more improvement from my students using this method than I ever did when working for a kayak school. I have also noticed more students sticking with the sport and staying motivated.

Kayak Instruction, Swiftwater Rescue, Colorado - Downstream Edge

 

[Oopps]

I think teaching rescue to beginners is a double edged sword. They should be comfortable with self-rescue and aware of the risks on the river, but, as always, in any rescue situation the safety of the rescuer comes first. If you are a beginner, I'm not sure if I would trust you to keep yourself safe while helping others.

In all our beginner classes (and we do teach beginner rescue classes, as well) emphasis is put on self-rescue rather than more advanced rescue skills. I personally feel that learning to prevent rescue situations is more important than know what to do should one arise, and that just means people need to learn how to read the water and judge what is or is not within their level.

That being said, I'd rather have someone that is a beginner and had some rescue training than an competent boater idiot who bought a rope and never practiced with it or had any sort of training.

Far as dryland/theory goes, we do that briefly, but some people learn by trying things, and some learn by doing it. You can explain to those who need it while sitting in boats on the lake, but you can't have those who need to try it do so in a classroom.

 

[sun_shine]

I taught kayaking for 4 years and we put very little emphasis on the roll. Maybe an hour out of a three day course.
This is how we worked our into to kayaking weekend.

Day1
*Introduction
*Expectations
*Types of kayaking
*Nomenclature
*Discussion of the "big 5"
*Boat Designs
*Fitted folks in gear
*short video section on wet exits and bow rescues
Then a good chunk of the day was spent on wet exits, bow rescues and hip snap development in a lake. How long we spent depended on the group.
We broke it down into very simple steps.

For example, with wet exits, we initially had folks get in their boats with no skirts or paddle and just had them get comfortable in the boats and flip without skirts. Then we put them into nylon skirts that are really easy to get out of. Then the instructor would demo the complete wet exit, explaining each step....Tuck, Pound, Pull, and Push.
One by one the students would work with and instructor on a spotted wet exit. We usually broke it down step by step.
First we would have the student lean forward and hug thier boat, they would flip themselves and then we would roll the right back up. if they we're comfortable we would move to the next step. Next, they would flip themselves over and pound three time and then the instructor would flip them up. After that we had them flip, pound three times, and then follow their cockpit rim to their grab loop ( but not pull it) Then they did the full on wet exit.
The students stayed in the nylon skirts for the rest of the day. Its been my experience that most people will do okay with you standing next to them and being able to think about the steps. Its when they have the unexpected flip that they will freak out and forget the wet exit.
* lunch
Then we move onto hip snap development and bow (T) rescues. The rest of the first day is spent on stroke development.

Day 2
*review
*stretching
*stroke review
*stroke combination patterns/ video feedback
*break/classroom video work with c-to-c roll
*c-to-c roll practice
*lunch
*classroom/hydrology lesson
*moving water afternoon w/ ferries, eddy-turns, peel-outs
we definitly focused on self-rescue, with a few setup sessions where they flipped, held onto their gear and swam to shore. the rest of the rescues we're bow rescues with instructors and wet exits too.

Day 3
*review
*swr discussion/ dryland throwbag work
*classroom- video work hydrology/river hazards
*class II ww run
*group managment on the river discussion at put-in
* review of moving water skills
*students as lead kayaker, switch out
*lunch/river reading discussion
*boat and land scouting
*swimming & throw bag practice in a rapid

I think that our courses we're a great success by the end of the course. Then we always talked about what to do next after the course. Roll classes, SWR, practice...etc. We always adapted the course to the speed of the group. We had groups that never made it to the "full run day" with rapids, they would stay on moving water.
​