Good question but from what I learned in SWR class the most important thing in any situation is to not make the problem worse. I think the reason that most beginners are not encouraged to take or practice SWR is the feeling that they would not be able to help the situation and possibly make it worse. Maybe the right way would be to divide SWR into two types of classes, one where you learn to self-rescue and prevent yourself from being an accident and another advanced class where you learn to assist others.

 

Hmmmm..

Sounds good, kind of like if you can't help yourself how can you help me.

 

I learned to paddle in Oregon taking a four day class. In the class of however many we spent only a fraction of our time on the lake and in the river learning to roll. I was lucky and picked up my roll the first try, but I was the only person in the four day class to learn to roll.
I now have a very good friend in Oregon who is a kayak instructor and a fiance here in Colorado who is learning to kayak. I took my fiance out and got here in the water as well as worked on her role. She got close but was never really comfortable in her boat. After spending time in her boat just paddling around in the river with my friend in Oregon she eventually learned to role. My friend in Oregon says that when they are teaching any of their many satisfied clients, they do not concentrate on the role until they have been on the river for 3 days.
just a thought

 

I've only been paddling for 4 years and I learned the roll first as well, though I didn't learn it. That took me 3 years on the water, as I worked up to runs that would actually dump me. I'd put it in this order: 1. Self rescue 2. strokes 3. reading the river 4. rolling 5. SWR

I think there needs to be more emphasis on strokes, including proper technique, paddle grip and body position (arms, chest, head, etc). With the proper strokes you have the ability and confidence to make those "must-make" moves. Proper stroking, 8), will help you avoid injuries as well. (Plus people tend to get pissy when you don't stroke with the proper technique!!)

When I first started I always hurt my shoulders and I had an elbow problem. I got advice on this site and my pains have virtually gone away. I was simply not using correct strokes, in the proper positions.

I'm not prepared to debate SWR being 5th, it should probably be higher, but it at least needs to be in there. I....uhhh.... haven'ttakenityet, but I am this year dambit! My main point is that rolling shouldn't be first.

Deb

 

ROLLING IS THE SECOND BEST TYPE OF SELF RESCUE next to restraint! it should be taught after CPR/First Aid and wet exits for beginners.
-aaron

 

I teach a class for beginners and start with a dry land day in the class room. We go over all of the gear and how it works and its uses, as well as watching video so they get a visualization of the skills they are going to use. Next, we take them to the pool and teach them strokes, bracing, and rolling (with all of the in between stuff like T-rescue turning strokes etc.). During the class we always stress the importance of taking swift water rescue and CPR classes. After this beginning class we offer a next level class where we take them class II with one class III in the river. Once again we have a class day and use white board drawings and video to explain the river and show them the skills they will be using. Then, we do a weekend river trip where the first day we teach them basic moving in current, ferries, eddy turns, rolling in easy current, and identifying hazards and scouting. On the last day we actually take them down the run trying to catch a lot of eddies and talking about what we see the whole time down.

 

Good call Double-A.

To answer the 4th question...

I feel that kayakers (compared to other sports) are some of the worst at learning proper technique and are generally horrible at taking the time to improve their technique. Hence, most of your paddling partners are probably going to teach you bad habits.

There is a clear difference between being a good instructor and being a good kayaker. When I went through ACA instructor training half of the students where class V- boaters at best (and I believe that the level of whitewater you can run directly relates to how good your technique is.) Just because someone can teach doesn't mean they know what they are teaching.

If you go and hit a couple of rails at a ski resort you will probably find some 16 year old kid that could watch you and tell you exactly what you are doing wrong and how to fix it. Chances are, you will find a different person every trip that knows what you are doing wrong. (yes, it has happened to me)

But if I go to a typical class III-IV run (think waterton, bailey, numbers) chances are very few of the paddlers there would have any idea how your grip on your paddle affects your forward stroke. Or, what simple manuever will in most cases be better than a brace and still benefit the paddler in the same way.

Bottom line, take any advice you receive from a friend (assuming this friend paddles the same class of water as you do) with a grain of salt, because they are probably doing it wrong, as with most of the other paddlers out there. If this friend knows how to skillfully run some shit, then they are probably doing something right and you might want to listen to them. And no, bailey doesn't count as "some shit," but that's another argument.

Disclaimer: There will always be differences in the way people teach and what they teach, but a good instructor knows why they teach there way and why other instructors teach a different way.

 

There is a clear difference between being a good instructor and being a good kayaker.

Very, very true.

And no, bailey doesn't count as "some shit," but that's another argument.

LOL yeah let's not start that one up.

What pass did you get this year, man? Let's try to get some turns before your annual injury. My schedule isn't as flexible as it used to be, so it's pretty much only going up on amateur days for me. I'll give you a call later. I'm headed to the boat Friday...hoping to get lucky with another 18" like they just had. If not, there's a hot tub anyway.

 

Thanks everyone good input/food for thought....

 

Let's try to get some turns before your annual injury.

Easy. I've figured out the secret to not taking myself out before kayak season...quit riding in February. Last year I made it...

I'm Copper/Winter Park this year. Switched it up. I'm all about clipping some passes for some variety though... My schedule is pretty flexible right now. Where are you working? You hiring?

Does Steamboat have those free passes now? Two years ago I remember getting a drunken 3 hours of sleep and then driving there for the last day of free passes and people were just handing them out in the parking lot. Super cool. Especially since they had about 15" of fresh or so.

Drop me an email and let me know what's up.
kyle.mccutchen@gmail.com

 

Still telecommuting to Austin from here. Way busy now, though. Not sure about passes in Steamboat - I got the card last year and that worked well. If I headed up sales up there I'd offer $300 season weekend passes to anyone with a Front Range zip code. They could cash in some serious dough that way. More cash for the locals and it's not like they are pining away to ski weekends anyway.

 

I learned the basics and how to roll in the pool all winter and as soon as spring break came around i was on class III water. I paddled class III/III+ water all summer and only swam twice.
I think learning balance and proper strokes helped me the most. I spent many hours learning edge control. Most beginners are never taught that.

 

Rasdoggy-
Are you looking to get into the industry or are you already in it?

Reason I ask is because you seem very concerned with things like, how kayaking is taught, and your other post states some concerns of the growth for kayaking?

What are trying to accomplish? I am just curious.

As far as kayak instruction: Any ACA instructor certification classes are completely up to date (should be) So the methods of how to teach are doing just fine.

I think all good institutions cover all of the topics you mentioned. The one I worked for first did a breakdown on land. Then a pond session about wet exits, and paddle strokes. Then the second half of the day was spent on an easy class 2 section. Before the students hit the river a basic safety talk was done about scouting, river obstacles, etc. The bottom line with instruction is that it takes more than 1 DAY to cover all of the basics.

CUTCH-Dude, Deerhunter on Bailey rapid is so "running the shit"

 

Marko you make good points.
I agree i don't see how someone can learn the basics of kayaking in 1 day. If someone thinks they are fine on a river after a 1 day class then they are crazy. If that is how it works then i think they should just focus on self rescue cuz that is all that person is going to be doing for a very long time.

 

I think learning balance and proper strokes helped me the most. I spent many hours learning edge control. Most beginners are never taught that.

Thanks Girl, you helped me make my point. I of course now believe that I took the wrong classes, but it seems that beginners just aren't taught strokes. I have Kent Ford, Derheimer sibling, Ken Whiting, EJ, etc instructional videos. I spend many hours watching and then taking the drills to the pool. (To the river or lake in summer.) My point was that as a beginner, in classes, I was never taught this stuff and it's critical. (Again, I recognize that I took the wrong classes.)

I agree that rolling is the best self-rescue...thank God for combat rolls. A good brace is a roll in many situations, so you could almost say that a roll is just another stroke.

I swam once this summer, in Narrow Falls of the Northgate Canyon. I got stuck against the wall. But then I rolled in the same spot the next week. (I just can't get a good line through that thing.) I also got a pretty good neck jammin my first time in Zume Flume this summer, but was able to roll. So I totally agree with the above poster that rolling is the best self-rescue. Its just hard to get a combat roll down without river experience and good stroke technique.

And Marko, I agree with your points, but can't a guy just sit at work and dream? I have a feeling things are a little slow for the Dog right now. I'm not slow, so I better quit dreaming and get back to work.

Deb

 

And Marko, I agree with your points, but can't a guy just sit at work and dream?

Huhh? Of course, he can dream at work. Where in my email did I say that he couldn't? :wink:

 

LOL, I find myself pondering stuff like this, so I just naturally assumed that Ras did the same. I was probably trying to justify my own insubordination. I do think its about time for me to start dreaming about making some turns though!

Why is kayaking so addicting...that's my next ponder. Dambit, there I go again. Get on to the next sport/season Deb!

 

Good Topic,

I agree with cugirl, I think the most important thing to learn in kayaking is a roll, not only a bomber roll but on both sides. I feel this is the best way to learn because we all know you can't learn anything while swimming next to your boat. If you have a good roll, you are cofident and take more chances on squirly eddy lines, ferrying, surfing waves/holes ect. A roll gives you the freedom, without fear of always being "the person my friends rescue" to try more things and focus on the keys to make you a better paddler, strokes, balance, turns and ferries.

I'm not a fan of self rescue, so this theory is probably worthless to most, yet I feel if you get in trouble you need to get out of the water asap and not get freight trained holding your boat or anything else that will hider you from getting out of the water. Isn't that why we always paddle with friends? So they can chase our things. On land you're safe in the water you can never be sure.

I also feel basic first aid/cpr is a must, but more important is knowing how to throw your rope where you want it, most people have them and have never thrown them, it seems crazy to me. Chances are more likely to use your rope 5000-1 than to administer cpr.

As for river reading, why bother or spending the time as a beginner, you will be on runs either following someone or a place where clear channels are obvoius. Most of the time you learn as you follow and trail and error as a beginner. That's what makes nature so great, it's always teaching you something.

Technique, as Kyle said is huge and most likely we have bad habits already, yet it so hard to judge who knows what about anything, so like Kyle said, use your judgement and listen when you think you should, and discard the other things as option b.

I learned to roll in a pool during winter and had bomber rolls by summer, yet still swam my first trip down the platte (alot), Once I figured out the mental part of rolling in a river I never looked back and focused on the important things to make me better. I hear about classes where they talk and give examples and show you how you should roll and then take you to swim and I don't get it, why are they not teaching a roll first and for most? And why do they still teach a stupid c to c roll and not an effective and usefull roll like the sweep? So I think the training does need to change or get tweaked. But more important is for us as paddlers to be accountable for ourselves. Hope everyone has a great winter and be safe. Kyle, you stay home til summer.

Gary

 

To add to the rolling thing. I remember when i was young I used to have to roll at least once before I could even paddle comfortably. If didn't roll, I was shakey and scared of flipping most of the day. After the first roll (which could be in an eddy, didn't matter) I could relax and paddle at my level the rest of the run. Bottom line, rolling builds confidence.

Excellent points Gary.

How is the shoulder healing? I tried to hurt myself at Winter Park again, and its looking like we have the potential for a good season next spring. I can't remember the last time we had this much snow this early... I shipped a boat up to Seattle where Gillman's at, so if you ever want to fly up there for a week of paddling let me know. We can definetly get another boat arranged, so you only have to fly with gear... Drop me a line when you are interested. I'll probably try for a February/March trip, unless I find some money sooner.

Talk to you soon. Drop me a line whenever.

 

Hey Kyle, shoulders are sore and I am a huge gaper right now. I did both shoulders and they are sore as hell. I just talked to TG and I will get up there sometime in the future as some of my favorite runs are in WA. If you get to jacksonhole this winter or summer let me know as that will be my new address for a year, so I will be paddling more in Idaho and Montana this summer.
Gary


chokeuout9@yahoo.com

 

To answer Marko’s ?, yes, I am involved in the industry. I work for a local shop and plan on becoming an Instructor next spring. My main goal is to work with the students that are having problems getting their roll either in the pool or on moving water and getting more families into the lifestyle.

From my point of view as an educator, open discussion about teaching methods, what is being taught and in what order is always a good thing; regardless of whether or not any changes should to be made or if they ever get put in place. If it gives one person a new idea, then it was worth the time and effort.

Over the last paddling season, I have talked to a lot of people about kayaking from prospective students to the Instructors to the shop employees.

It was interesting to hear what the neverevers had to say about trying kayaking. Most people in that group had the idea that kayaking involved Zambezi sized rapids and 60 foot water falls, never giving a thought to a pool/lake/slow river as a place to learn.
Their biggest concern was that they wouldn’t be able to roll or get out/trapped, when told it was easier to wet exit than to get into a boat most where surprised.
In my opinion, the advertising and media have done to kayaking what “Jaws” and “Shark Week” did to SCUBA.

One of the groups I was most interested in was the “I took a class once”. I asked why they didn’t stay with the sport, and most said it was because they didn’t get the roll. When asked how many classes they took, most replied “just one”. After asked why they didn’t go back, responses ranged from “I couldn’t figure it out” to “the instructor didn’t seem to care, want/have time to spend with me” which were the 2 most common answers.

As we all know most people don’t get their roll in the first class, hence my question about using paddle floats and goggles in a roll class. I have read about them being used as training aids recommended in several books on learning the roll, but have never seen this applied in any of the roll classes I have attended.
Most people will give up on something if they don’t see some level of achievement, and after 3 roll classes I to felt that way.
Now from my personal experience, both a float and goggles have helped me with learning an onside, offside and back deck roll in one season. That and the will to stick with it and to try.

The next common answer was “I didn’t like the feeling of being upside down bouncing my head on the bottom, not being able to see” makes sense as we are a visual animal, take away our vision and you take away our comfort. The best advice I was given on that one was to go out on a tame stretch of river and get drug for a while so you get used to it.

The next group I found interest in was the “I used to kayak” crowd. When asked why they dropped from the sport the most common answers were “My husband/wife doesn’t paddle” or “had kids” or “job/time”.

Getting the family involved is a harder topic to address as it involves changing a persons way of thinking about something from “is it safe, do I want to do this, do we have the time/money” from the person that doesn’t paddle to “We can do this”. The advanced kayaker must realize that the non-paddlers turned kayaker may never move beyond Class 2. But that will give the family something to do together and more than likely allow the more advanced paddlers to go and have adventures with their paddling buddies.

Part of this issue can be addressed by getting more non-paddlers to attend Slalom events. Seeing the kids and women running the gates shows that everyone can be involved in kayaking and it doesn’t include huge water, normally. Another way is to offer free demos to kayaker’s families where they paddle around for awhile then do a wet exit to see it’s fairly easy to get out of their boat.

The roll vs. self-rescue is a moot point. Of course it is MUCH better to have a roll on both sides if you are running any Class of river, but the need of self rescue is as important as being able to use your throw bag. Spend any time around the water and you’ll find yourself swimming for one reason or another, whether it’s from your boat or slipping off a rock while scouting that next rapid/setting up safety.

This is what I see as an easy to learn format:
2 hours spent learning the wet exit, T-rescue then the basic strokes and edge control having the student paddle in a figure 8 going left, right and in reverse.
2 hours spent learning the hip snap poolside then roll skills using a paddle float and goggles.
2 hours divided up between float and non float rolls with a recommended follow up class.

Personally, I would recommend the student wear goggles from the first lesson till the end as it would make learning the T-rescue easier by taking away the anxiety of not being able to see help coming.

Thanks for everyone’s input and ideas.

 

"The roll vs. self-rescue is a moot point. Of course it is MUCH better to have a roll on both sides if you are running any Class of river, but the need of self rescue is as important as being able to use your throw bag. Spend any time around the water and you’ll find yourself swimming for one reason or another, whether it’s from your boat or slipping off a rock while scouting that next rapid/setting up safety"


I guess you need to explain your meaning of self rescue to me ras? Cause self rescue to me is reeling yourself and your gear in by yourself. As a paddler that has been around, I can say, I would never hold onto my boat floating down the river and most of the time, when I swim, I yard sale everything. Swimming, like you said is a necessary skill to learn/know, is this self rescue in your opinion or is there more? You talking telling them how to swim to shore and/or the easiest way to get there. Guess I don't understand self rescue. You seem very gung ho on self rescue and cpr, just trying to see where you're coming from.

Gary

 

Rolling classes should be held seperately. You could spend the whole time trying to teach everyone to roll. As you said, rolling is the best self rescue, however, there are a lot of people who don't have a roll who paddle on a regular basis, although they rarely venture into class III. A roll is helpful, but not necessary to paddle mild (II) whitewater. The important thing is that they get out there and start having fun, but, they need to understand the dangers.

Self rescue should be one of the first things taught. A beginner is going to swim and they need to understand how to swim and how to avoid danger. They also need some water reading skills to know how to spot hazards such as undercut rocks, strainers, etc.

Agree with you on wearing goggles at roll classes. I've seen a person use paddle floats, and I think that could be helpful in getting people started. But, I don't think I would use them unless I had a student who was having a really hard time getting it. Another thing that can be helpful is handpaddles. Rolling with handpaddles can be much easier than rolling with a paddle. If a student is struggling, you might try getting them rolling with handpaddles. This will give them some success and boost their confidence. Once they've developed the feel for rolling, then go back to work with a paddle.

Some folks mentioned strokes. There's a lot of material to cover in a beginner class and you just can't spend a lot of time on particular skills. You should be able to find the instructor outlines at the ACA website. Most beginning kayakers just want to go down the river more than they want to learn how to perfect their forward stroke anyway.

Intermediate classes are really cool because students already have basic skills and river knowledge, so you can really focus on proper technique and spend time sharpening their skills.

 

We're on the same page there Gary, Self-Rescue to me is getting you out of the water by the safest/quickest means before anyone else gets involved. Whether it is knowing how to properly wade to shore in knee deep water or swimming a wave train and getting over that upcomming strainer to using your paddle to swim with, then worring about your boat if the water is to rough to keep it near you.

As far as CPR goes EVERYONE should know it, and not just for river use.
Basic CPR/First aid should be required to pass High School.

Now then how would you all recomend getting more people to take classes to get better.

 

Rasdoggy
I think it is awesome that you are so involved with finding ways to reach more consumers, and create better teaching methods. The kayaking industry as a whole needs some definite work to help the overall growth. This industry is very young, and has most likely just stepped out of its infancy stage within the past 5 years.

When you take your ACA cert next spring it will definitely open new doors for your teaching methods as well as your own personal paddling techniques. It wasn't until my re-cert with an amazing ACA instructor that my technique, and strokes really improved. ACA instructor training improved from my first certification to my recert.

I agree with your idea of open discussion with people about teaching. It will definitely open new doors. Some advice from me to you would be to also talk directly with ACA about their methods of teaching. ACA is the company that sets the standard for teaching methods.

As for the growth of kayaking:
That is an interesting topic. I think it is something that needs a great deal of improvement, and attention from all aspects of the industry. The problem is that the kayak industry doesn't really understand its consumers; nobody has really taken the time to figure out who exactly the consumers are (age, location, etc.) There is a lot more on top of that, but I will have to post more later.

As for the Mtn Dew'er scene you talk about, I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean styles of competition?, or are you labeling certain types of kayakers as "mtn dewers"?

Good topic discussion

LAter
Mark