Even "known's" can go dark and screw things up. Politics, substance abuse and continual poor "judgment " have turned me away from the group trips. Getting back into saddle so to speak will not be easy, if ever.

 

It does indeed. More likable than AH1, but not forgiven…because he knew AH1 was an unbearable asshat (he told us so while on the river), and never said anything prior to launching, or during all our many conversations. That’s how badly they wanted to get onto our trip. Asshats.
We’re pretty certain now that they came with the intention of going off on their own…AH1 had mentioned it earlier in negotiations, though we didn’t really think he was serious.

 

I almost knew before trip I should have pulled out?!no pun intended… but there I was , day 6, Bright Angle, the only exit…. 116 degrees. I couldn’t carry enough water to get my ass out if there. All I remember is get close to the Zoroaster Red stuff running left at Crystal. Love you Buzzard People

 

Man, that type of heat is awful. I was invited down the GC for mid-july trip, didn't care for the dynamics of the group and took a pass. So glad I did, 113-115 degree weather for the whole trip. A friend who went said it was awful. I used to work the Wyoming oilfields and built a plant on top of a mountain at about 8000ft level, snowed in June and in August up there, I can take 40" below weather all day long and like it. I cannot handle much over 104", just can't do it..

 

This is a fascinating thread for several reasons. For starters, I’m a 20 year coach and occasionally do clinics to train other coaches. I find team building and group dynamics fascinating and have poured countless hour into learning how to build successful groups through books, clinics, podcasts, conversations with piers, etc. I love this stuff! Though I’ve only put what I’ve learned into building teams of high school and middle school kids. I am currently planning for a March Grand trip as the PH and TL. This is my first Grand trip, and first time planning a trip longer than 8 days.

On one hand I am nervous about the group dynamic, but also stoked to see if we can build a great team and get through a 25 day trip without a hitch. (Though I think a little adversity always makes a team stronger.)

So there has been a lot of talk of ’randos’, and other factors, but what really makes for a successful trip? I doubt very much it has everything to do with luck, or having randos, or not.

One of my favorite books on culture states that every successful group culture must have three things: safety (of both the physical and personal variety), shared vulnerability, and a common goal. What was lacking in these calamitous trips? I’m in my mid 40’s and have had great trips. I suspect, had I been on these trips in my 20’s, the drama might have been considerably worse? Is that the case with these trips? I’d be curious to know the average age in the groups having these issues. What other factors were to blame? It sounds like one of the stories had drama stemming from poor organization in communication and management of funds, by the TL, that let to trouble at the get go.

What do you think are the factors that lead to either a successful or unsuccessful trip? Chore assignments, gear lists, itineraries, and such are all things designed to relieve stress, communicate a plan, and to minimize unknowns to ultimately mitigate conflict. What else are you doing to mitigate conflict?

For those of you who run commercial multi-day trips, what are some of your strategies for conflict resolution? How do you identify and head off potential conflicts?

For those who have been TL on a number of long expeditions, be it the Grand, or other boating or non boating trips, what are your keys to a well run trip?

I suspect malcontent is bred mostly from lack of communication. How do you ensure everyone is on the same page?

I would love to hear of some trip drama where issues were dealt with successfully, and how.

 

This is a fascinating thread for several reasons. For starters, I’m a 20 year coach and occasionally do clinics to train other coaches. I find team building and group dynamics fascinating and have poured countless hour into learning how to build successful groups through books, clinics, podcasts, conversations with piers, etc. I love this stuff! Though I’ve only put what I’ve learned into building teams of high school and middle school kids. I am currently planning for a March Grand trip as the PH and TL. This is my first Grand trip, and first time planning a trip longer than 8 days.

On one hand I am nervous about the group dynamic, but also stoked to see if we can build a great team and get through a 25 day trip without a hitch. (Though I think a little adversity always makes a team stronger.)

So there has been a lot of talk of ’randos’, and other factors, but what really makes for a successful trip? I doubt very much it has everything to do with luck, or having randos, or not.

One of my favorite books on culture states that every successful group culture must have three things: safety (of both the physical and personal variety), shared vulnerability, and a common goal. What was lacking in these calamitous trips? I’m in my mid 40’s and have had great trips. I suspect, had I been on these trips in my 20’s, the drama might have been considerably worse? Is that the case with these trips? I’d be curious to know the average age in the groups having these issues. What other factors were to blame? It sounds like one of the stories had drama stemming from poor organization in communication and management of funds, by the TL, that let to trouble at the get go.

What do you think are the factors that lead to either a successful or unsuccessful trip? Chore assignments, gear lists, itineraries, and such are all things designed to relieve stress, communicate a plan, and to minimize unknowns to ultimately mitigate conflict. What else are you doing to mitigate conflict?

For those of you who run commercial multi-day trips, what are some of your strategies for conflict resolution? How do you identify and head off potential conflicts?

For those who have been TL on a number of long expeditions, be it the Grand, or other boating or non boating trips, what are your keys to a well run trip?

I suspect malcontent is bred mostly from lack of communication. How do you ensure everyone is on the same page?

I would love to hear of some trip drama where issues were dealt with successfully, and how.

I can only speak for week long trips (never done the Grand), but setting clear expectations before the trip has been key for my trips. Having all meals/groover duties/clean up crew/etc lined up beforehand has been real nice as it takes a lot of the pressure off during the actual trip. Like was mentioned earlier, stress during trips can be overwhelming for a lot of people. A lot of factors can play into that stress, but if you can mitigate stress with pre-planning, it can make the trip much more enjoyable for everyone.

 

My wife and I celebrated our 50th wedding anniversary not long ago, and somebody asked us what was the basis of that success. My response was two words - flexibility and forgiveness.

So what does that have to do with group dynamics on a river trip? Well I would say it has a lot to do with it. People with exceptionally rigid personality traits and behavior patterns often find it difficult to mesh with others on trips like those in the Grand Canyon -- where cooperative effort and accommodation are necessary for daily success and overall enjoyment. And everybody makes mistakes, or displays minor behavioral characteristics that may not be everybody's cup of tea.

If you can't be flexible, and you're not willing to forgive the occasional foibles and mistakes of others, then it's likely you're not going to be a good fit for an extended wilderness-type river trip. Those are the kind of traits I'd have my antenna up for as I considered people for a trip.

 

So say you have a close friend you want on a trip, but know he/she has a somewhat rigid personality. What is your approach to mitigating possible conflict stemming from that person? While it’s easy to say, “I’d never invite that person,” the reality is that those people are on almost every trip regardless.

 

Iam a firm believer now that all people just want direction. The way you direct them is the challenge. It’s like the coaching thing. What and how do they respond with there best. A challenge. For sure what I learned as a first time TL is you absolutely have to have hard fast expectations and you have to delegate and lead. I just figured we where all friendly and we where all on a river and who cares and it was to stressful for everyone to deal. As soon as I made it jobs and I made it mandatory to do this that the other people actually relaxed more.? I dunno but the guy who made us miserable was just in happy doing anything and was allways the loudest. I heard from his friend not long ago about how it was the best trip of his life….so handling stress and learning how to coach strengths and weaknesses is a life long challenge it would seem. I can usually tell when iam not liked and just excuse myself lol. I think I’ll do some easier rivers solo in the coming years just to have that stress and challenge.

 

Montet, there's no one crisp, clear answer to that question, because people are different.

The relationship you have with your friend, your knowledge of how that person may or may not have successfully participated in other similar activities, your knowledge of the other people involved in the trip -- all are going to play into how you handle that decision.

As a sort of a shot in the dark though, I would say that a heart to heart talk with that person would be the starting point. Set out your knowledge of the trip, the demands that are going to be placed on them, the other types of people that are going to be involved, and then gauge his or her reaction. And of course I suppose in that evaluation, you also should estimate their possible reaction to any intervention you might have to engage in on the river with them, along with how they would react to the possibility that you might not include them on the trip after you've had this discussion.

In one way, this sort of falls back on that old thing about the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few. How important is it to you to have this one person on the trip, when there is some possibility that their presence will diminish in any important way your and everyone else's enjoyment of the Grand Canyon experience?

 

Montet, there's no one crisp, clear answer to that question, because people are different.

The relationship you have with your friend, your knowledge of how that person may or may not have successfully participated in other similar activities, your knowledge of the other people involved in the trip -- all are going to play into how you handle that decision.

As a sort of a shot in the dark though, I would say that a heart to heart talk with that person would be the starting point. Set out your knowledge of the trip, the demands that are going to be placed on them, the other types of people that are going to be involved, and then gauge his or her reaction. And of course I suppose in that evaluation, you also should estimate their possible reaction to any intervention you might have to engage in on the river with them, along with how they would react to the possibility that you might not include them on the trip after you've had this discussion.

In one way, this sort of falls back on that old thing about the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few. How important is it to you to have this one person on the trip, when there is some possibility that their presence will diminish in any important way your and everyone else's enjoyment of the Grand Canyon experience?

That’s why this stuff fascinated me: there are so many variables that make every answer difficult. There is never any certain fix, and never any hard and fast determining factor in a person’s qualification or disqualification from an invite. There are so many variables, and, I believe, you have to apply as many tools as you know how to in order to minimize conflict. It’ll never be 100%, but if you can go from 40% to 60% with solid pre-trip planning on who’s in the group, and another 10% with managing expectations, and another 10% with communication, etc…

 

Just expect an essay every time from me on this topic I guess... TLDR... being intentional about maintaining a good attitude is a primary key to success...

After 7 trips down the canyon... I've noticed that you really start to notice each person's personality traits, good or bad, and ignoring them becomes harder as the trip goes on. I think the conflicts come when people get to the end of their rope and react. Those little annoyances and things that bug you really come into focus after 8-10 days on the trip and you still have the rest of the trip to go.

In regards to the incident I profiled earlier in this thread... that individual STARTED conflicts before the trip was even really under way and was setting off all kinds of warning bells. I'm not sure there was anything we could do because the guy had some pretty serious psychoses that no amount of good communication or good team building was going to remedy. I'm sure we could have dealt with it better and perhaps it wouldn't have turned out as it had...but that dude had some serious stuff to deal with.

The canyon will highlight what you bring with you into it, good or bad. If you go into with positive intentions it can be a hugely liberating and life changing experience but it can also bring things out in yourself you never knew were there.

Team Dynamics are obviously very important, but it starts with choosing the right team at the beginning and working from there. Bringing the wrong team member can have a huge impact and can snowball out of control quickly.

I think the biggest thing I've learned is that you have to be intentional about dealing with "Drama" early on and seeing why its happening and working it out well before it escalates beyond a minor conflict. Everyone on the trip has to participate in this and go out of their way to be intentionally inclusive with everyone, intentional about tamping down the things they are annoyed with or find irritating, and intentional about maintaining enthusiasm and a good attitude. It isn't always gonna be easy after a long day of pushing through the wind or after a windstorm comes through and knocks all your stuff down and covers it in sand... but it isn't that hard to realign your point of view if you are intentional about it.

IMHO, this should actually be discussed at the beginning of the trip and not just assumed that people will do it. The further into the trip you get... the stronger this attitude has to get. Its not easy and I'll admit I struggle with it sometimes... but making sure that you maintain that intentionality through the end of the trip is important. I'm not saying you have to have daily discussions about it and I think just allowing people to relax and enjoy the trip is important...but it should kind of be in the back of people's minds when they are interacting with other trip participants. A certain level of tolerance for personality differences is also important.

I don't think the TL should have to make every decision or deal with every conflict, but at the end of the day it is their trip and their wishes should count more since, in the eyes of the NPS and Federal Government, they are responsible for the trip. I know of multiple times TL's have been ticketed for things that one of their trip participants did without the TL knowing about it at the time. That said, I've also heard some horror stories about overly controlling TL's that feel the need to exert their will on the rest of the trip and do not react well to people pushing back. Its a fine line between being assertive and tyrannical sometimes. Its also very possible for the TL to lack assertiveness at the right time and just let everyone walk all over them and it can just as detrimental to the trip...so its a line you have to walk.

One of my biggest pet peeves on a long trip like this are the people who do the "Fake Angry" thing. I've been on a few trips with people who do that and it always sets me on edge. Someone will say something and they'll start yelling and screaming like they are angry and then laugh it off. Their close friends know they are fucking around... but the people who don't know them as well, like me, have a hard time telling if they are serious about it or not. Even worse is if they act similarly when they are actually upset. I had a guy like that on my first trip and most of the time he was joking.... but 1 out of 5 or 6 times he was actually upset and it made for some very awkward and uncomfortable situations.

I'll say again... this is all made easier by choosing the right people for you trip and listening to warning bells that go off as you get ready for it. I'm sure most people who had bad incidents on a trip can think back and recognize a warning bell (or claxons and strobes) that they decided to ignore because "they won't be that bad". Every trip has a different emphasis and you just have to make sure the participants are all on the same page.

For me, the biggest thing I need to know is party level i.e. drugs, booze, bedtime, etc. I'm usually ok with a little bit of partying, but I don't need it every night and I like it sorta mellow. Some people don't like any drugs or even booze... many REALLY like it and its a rager every night of the trip. Usually it's somewhere in between.... but if you come on a trip expecting one end of the spectrum and the rest of the trip is on the other side... there might be some conflict. I personally don't mind a bit of drugs and alcohol on the trip but I want it to be mellow and not a problem if I choose not partake at any given time. I prefer it at camp and not on the river but undrestand that people are gonna be drinking a few beers while floating.

Oh...and the Grand Canyon IS NOT the right place to quit a bad habit. I know a few people, who have never smoked a cigarette in their life, who bring a pack of cigarettes on the trip just in case a smoker runs out or has decided a 18 day potentially high stress rafting trip was a great time to finally quit smoking. Its an amazing place to explore yourself and change your life... but maybe going cold turkey in that environment isn't the best way to go.

 

Just expect an essay every time from me on this topic I guess... TLDR... being intentional about maintaining a good attitude is a primary key to success...

After 7 trips down the canyon... I've noticed that you really start to notice each person's personality traits, good or bad, and ignoring them becomes harder as the trip goes on. I think the conflicts come when people get to the end of their rope and react. Those little annoyances and things that bug you really come into focus after 8-10 days on the trip and you still have the rest of the trip to go.

In regards to the incident I profiled earlier in this thread... that individual STARTED conflicts before the trip was even really under way and was setting off all kinds of warning bells. I'm not sure there was anything we could do because the guy had some pretty serious psychoses that no amount of good communication or good team building was going to remedy.

The canyon will highlight what you bring with you into it, good or bad. If you go into with positive intentions it can be a hugely liberating and life changing experience but it can also bring things out in yourself you never knew were there.

Team Dynamics are obviously very important, but it starts with choosing the right team at the beginning and working from there. Bringing the wrong team member can have a huge impact and can snowball out of control quickly.

I think the biggest thing I've learned is that you have to be intentional about dealing with "Drama" early on and seeing why its happening and working it out well before it escalates beyond a minor conflict. Everyone on the trip has to participate in this and go out of their way to be intentionally inclusive with everyone, intentional about tamping down the things they are annoyed with or find irritating, and intentional about maintaining enthusiasm and a good attitude.

IMHO, this should actually be discussed at the beginning of the trip and not just assumed that people will do it. The further into the trip you get... the stronger this attitude has to get. Its not easy and I'll admit I struggle with it sometimes... but making sure that you maintain that intentionality through the end of the trip is important. I'm not saying you have to have daily discussions about it and I think just allowing people to relax and enjoy the trip is important...but it should kind of be in the back of peoples minds when they are interacting with other trip participants. A certain level of tolerance for personality differences is also important.

I don't think the TL should have to make every decision or deal with every conflict, but at the end of the day it is their trip and their wishes should count more. That said, I've heard some horror stories about overly controlling TL's that feel the need to exert their will on the rest of the trip and do not react well to people pushing back. Its a fine line between being assertive and tyrannical sometimes. Its also very possible for the TL to lack assertiveness at the right time and just let everyone walk all over them and it can just as detrimental to the trip...so its a line you have to walk.

One of my biggest pet peeves on a long trip like this are the people who do the "Fake Angry" thing. I've been on a few trips with people who do that and it always sets me on edge. Someone will say something and they'll start yelling and screaming like they are angry and then laugh it off. Their close friends know they are fucking around... but the people who don't know them as well, like me, have a hard time telling if they are serious about it or not. Even worse is if they act similarly when they are actually upset. I had a guy like that on my first trip and most of the time he was joking.... but 1 out of 5 or 6 times he was actually upset and it made for some very awkward and uncomfortable situations.

I'll say again... this is all made easier by choosing the right people for you trip and listening to warning bells that go off as you get ready for it. I'm sure most people who had bad incidents on a trip can think back and recognize a warning bell (or claxons and strobes) that they decided to ignore because "they won't be that bad". Every trip has a different emphasis and you just have to make sure the participants are all on the same page.

For me, the biggest thing I need to know is party level i.e. drugs, booze, bedtime, etc. I'm usually ok with a little bit of partying, but I don't need it every night and I like it sorta mellow. Some people don't like any drugs or even booze... many REALLY like it and its a rager every night of the trip. Usually it's somewhere in between.... but if you come on a trip expecting one end of the spectrum and the rest of the trip is on the other side... there might be some conflict. I personally don't mind a bit of drugs and alcohol on the trip but I want it to be mellow and not a problem if I choose not partake at any given time. I prefer it at camp and not on the river but undrestand that people are gonna be drinking a few beers while floating.

Honestly enjoy and appreciate your essays.

 

This is an interesting article on group dynamics:

Group dynamics: implications for successful expeditions

A successful expedition requires technical ability as well as the ability to get along with others. Many expeditions are unsuccessful because attention is not directed toward the dynamics between group members. Positive relationships can assist an expedition to meet its goals, and may even...

www.wemjournal.org

 

good read

 

Iam not trying to pick a fight…but…people really do have different ideas on what’s fun and what’s not…lol. So if your going to do 135 mile days from 5am to 9am and then bark bark bark like a drill Sargent…er…or if you wanna do super dangerous stuff in dangerous weather ect…that’s something you should explain and if you didn’t you can’t really blame a guy for not wanting to do that!? I am reading this and I’ve never been on the Grand Canyon but my idea is maybe completely different than another’s so I guess I was a little wrong when I was a TL I should have said what I wanted and didn’t. I have a bad habit of thinking that everyone thinks like me …bad !!! Lol. So yeah you gotta communicate honestly! So for me I need you to know I want to relax more than have a expedition lol!! So what happens when you get mileage wrong and you have to push everyday in wind ? Lol! That’s when you really see character lol! Oh man all these bad grand accident this year. How can you deal with that kinda stuff without it ruining people. Terrible

 

Good stuff, good thread, thanks all. I'll add that I think it's important to remember if there's tension on any trip and you can't figure out why or who it may be time to go down to the river, find a calm pool, look down and see what's in the reflection. Time to reassess attitude. I've put myself in timeout (rarely) but just try to be self aware

 

A polite was of saying that if it’s day five and you don’t know who the asshole is…it’s you. Or maybe Charlie, the Nazi drill instructor. I hate it when he breaks out the whip.

 

Many of you knew bighorn1478, who passed last year. One of the people writing on the buzz about his passing had invited Scott (bighorn) on a trip and said that Scott’s comment on the invite was “We will not get drunk, run through the camp naked or talk politics. We will participate in conversations and do our fair share of camp chores. We will do our best to make sure you are glad you invited us and will return the favor in the future."

That statement has stuck with me due to both the circumstances in which it was related and because it is an accurate reflection what I knew of Scott. Have felt like that’s the target.

 

The thing about the GC is that it really can be physically exhausting, depending on the flows and winds and hikes some days you get to camp just whooped. Some days are also mentally exhausting at the big rapids and if there is carnage. And this increases as your skin protests and the daily rowing wears yiu out. I know my capacity for BS reduces greatly over the 3 weeks. The best GC trips I've been on have a set rotating work schedule for all participants usually agreed in advance so no surprises. This establishes the expectation. Then you can allow some flexibility for things like someone who had a really bad day (carnage, scorpion sting, etc.) But having the heart to heart with slackers early really helps with group morale, I have found in the past as the TL that a heart to heart with people shows that you care and are proactively working on a solution to include them in the group. My 2c.

 

It does take a certain kind of person to endure a. Hard trip. Nevermind a trip that is in design even harder or dangerous or both !!! I think I may now use the excuse that iam fancy and have outgrown full on sufferfests! It’s funny how some you think will need help thrive and some you think will thrive need help. My wife says the same thing about middle aged guys who’ve never been married -rigid. She rowed into a strong wind for 8 days in hot sun and only once said ,”this sucks.” Lol! Girls are usually better at the mundane suffering than boys ? It is kinda hard to be perky when your getting your ass kicked and I know my group ditched dinner one night and just drank a beer and went to bed lol!! Maybe you just have to have had that kind of experience to know you’ll be ok. Marry a small town Montana girl!!!!

 

I have dreams of a GC trip and will probably be a grateful random. I have planned quite a few outdoor excursions from multiple day canoe trips to backpacking and this last spring even a bikepacking trip. I always tell people no matter how great or shitty the trip turns out I just ask they start each day with a smile...

 

My wife is a pretty serious ultra-endurance mountain bike racer (think racing through the night for days in a row in remote, difficult terrain), and one of her mantras I think applies well to tough group situations.

Never make an important decision when you’re tired, cold or hungry.

If she needs to weigh an important decision, she will pull over, put on a warm jacket, eat some food, take a 20 minute power nap and then decide.

 

My take on all of this thread is the Grand Canyon is for most of us the ultimate goal of multiday river trips.

It's also for many of us the most difficult to plan trip ever. Grand Canyon trips are full of planning tasks each of which at one time or the other will determine how the trip goes.

This is especially true of private permit trips many of which go on for 21 days actually on the river. Some times getting every one to the putin and getting every thing loaded is as key as the actual time on the river.

First is the gear, then just as important the menu and then buying and packing all the food that must last the entire trip especially if the max number of boaters is on the trip.

In my opinion the key success factor to any river trip but especially a 21 day Grand Canyon trip is the people on the trip. richp said it well in his post above.

21 days with the same group of people working out the procedures to make the trip work is either a ton of fun or if a few asshat personalities got invited just miserable for all. Even miserable for those doing their best to make things work.

When the boats leave the beach, it is almost impossible to fix a bad invite ! I do know of trips where some hiked out (their decision or a group order) but that hike can be dangerous.

It is time with the people on the float that makes the best trip memories.

Which brings to mind something one of my long time boating buds had to say about picking folks to go on Grand Canyon private permits.

He said when he was picking folks to invite, his key task was picking people who could get along with others while doing their share or more of the workload on a spaceship for 21 plus river days. More if you include travel and prep days.

I have found this to be true. Most of us on the Buzz have been floating for long enough to have a tested and trusted group of friends that make river trips the best and most fun activities possible. Having the right people along means just about anything that goes wrong will be fixed - and the fun continues.

 

I have to agree with many of you who stated picking the right people is the biggest challenge. It's certainly the wild card as the rest is just preparation and logistics. My first trip as PH/TL was a small group doing Deso. My wife and I in my 14', one of the groomsman from my wedding and his girlfriend (now wife) on his 14' cat, a friend/coworker I met guiding kayak trips and his wife in their 16'. In my head everyone was going to get along great but that wasn't the case. The guys just rubbered each other wrong pretty quickly and it didn't get much better.

I can look back now and say it's probably best that we had to push 50 miles in a very long day, cutting the trip in half to evacuate one of the guys who was bit by a bat. I still boat with both of them just not on the same trip.

I apply for pretty much every western multi-day trip except the Grand Canyon (I've been twice but I'm not interested in leading that big of a trip). I have to admit I do breath a sigh of relief on those years I don't draw anything in the lotteries. I manage people for a living and would much rather be a helpful asset to a trip than have to be TL during my time off work.

 

I'm with you on this... I've led a few trips but its not something I look forward to doing. Last year I thought the final day to submit for the GC lottery was the end of February but it turns out it was the 20th so I missed submitting...and it was kind of liberating not having to worry about it. Other then 2020 when my trip got differed till this year and I had to find a new one later in the year, I've never had a problem finding a trip. In fact, as I've said in another post, I've had the enviable task of having to decide between several trips that I got invites on for the last few years. In 2020... finding a replacement trip was kinda difficult. I started looking and posting various places when they opened back up but heard mostly crickets until November trips started coming up looking for people. I was surprised how much push back I got for wanting to bring my Dory too. I ended up finding an amazing trip that turned out to be my favorite trip down the Canyon I've had yet.

For me...the most important first step is finding 3-5 people you trust and know that they know how a trip goes...and make them group leaders then filling the rest of the trip from there. This works on week long trips, but it also works on longer trips like the Grand. Once you have your core or group leaders (me being one as well), you task them with preparing meals. I like to do full grand trips, and 5 meal/chore groups. This allows you to do a chore cycle that also includes days off. Maybe start with Groover, then Dishes, then Cooking, then two days off and start again. The people you choose, being competent river cooks, will be in charge of buying, prepping and cooking meals for their scheduled meal days (submitted to the TL for approval). This just leaves making sure you have required group gear covered. All of this, ideally, goes on a google spreadsheet that everyone can see. Hardest thing to get right is the kitchen, but most other stuff just falls in to place.

Second best way to get on trips after being a easy going, friendly, low drama and flexible participant is having some group gear. A well curated kitchen is hard to come by and will bump you to the top of my "Frequent Recommendation and invite" list pretty quickly and having groovers and the willingness to clean them comes in close second especially if they aren't the Ecosafe ones.

 

A while back I was putting together a trip and invited a guy I had been around for a while, whom I knew to be a skilled boater. I thought then, and still think, he would be great to have on a trip.

He learned that we had some open slots, and proposed several of his friends as additional participants. I was open to the idea, and suggested we all meet at a local spot to get to know each other a little bit better.

He was unwilling to do that, for reasons that I no longer recall. Moreover, he said that he really didn't want to make the trip if they couldn't be on it -- basically take them sight unseen or none of us go.

It was an odd situation that made me feel that in some way he was sort of infringing an important PH/TL function -- group composition. Because it was possible to meet these guys in advance, I really wanted to do that as part of my responsibility to the others on the trip. As a result, I took a pass on the entire arrangement, including his participation.

While I regretted not having him on the trip, and having the benefit of his river knowledge and skills, I've never second guessed that decision.

 

He was unwilling to do that, for reasons that I no longer recall. Moreover, he said that he really didn't want to make the trip if they couldn't be on it -- basically take them sight unseen or none of us go.

It was an odd situation that made me feel that in some way he was sort of infringing an important PH/TL function -- group composition.

You were probably correct to trust your Spidey sense. I think you more than likely dodged a bullet.

 

One of the groups I go with has a dude who, the second you invite him, instantly invites a bunch of other people without asking or even really talking to you about it. Some of those people are "interesting" to say the least. Its just a bit mind blowing to me how inviting one person can COMPLETELY change the energy of the trip sometimes.

A few years back I had another guy ask if he could invite "a few friends"... and two days later he emailed back saying "ok...I have 12 people lined up" and in a leap of faith I was like "cool...sounds good" and it turned out to be an awesome trip despite a few challenges including the drunkest person I've ever seen on the first night where I was REALLY questioning my decision. The dude actually cleaned up for the rest of the trip and was apologetic and awesome the rest of the trip.

It was kinda funny...it was a Lodore trip and we decided to extend it by putting in at the Flaming Gorge dam and the first part of the trip was VERY mellow and self-sufficient...and the whole energy of the trip changed when my buddy and the 12 people he invited joined at Lodore.

 

Someone posted here about a year ago about carefully inviting any and all trip participants.

“I might have a spot on an on upcoming xxx trip. Are you interested?”

Lets them know their position is tentative and not guaranteed, allows you to vet strangers, and should flag people to not over-invite.

The devil is in the details, but at least as an initial invite it gives you some wiggle room.

 

People wonder why I prefer working as a commercial guide...... In my book the chapter it is one of the largest sections. I was invited on a trip a decade ago and hopped on and after the first meeting knew the trip was in trouble. Two of us tried to explain to the PH what was going to happen and she did not believe us. We bailed. Moenkoepi said they came in to Diamond in two different groups and did not talke to teach other.

 

Try to vet carefully & don't ignore those red flags! In my observations, I've noticed that most people can get along on a trip that lasts a week or less. That's also when the newness of the trip wears off & folks tend to get in the groove of the trip. When there are personality conflicts, they tend to simmer awhile before boiling over. It often seems to happen 10-12 days into the trip. I've seen it happen twice at National. With people that are inclined to get along, the conflict often gets resolved after the meltdown. Otherwise it just keeps degenerating. My brother was on a GC trip with a bunch of people that met on the internet & had an awesome trip. However, they were hopscotching with another trip of "friends" that melted down & ended up splitting due to an overbearing TL. The guy actually pulled his river knife on he group! Sometimes on a trip in spite of your best efforts, someone just can't seem to get along & just ends up being a nuisance without completely ruining the trip. Of course they don't get invited again. As I get older, I'm less inclined to worry about filing the trip completely & just want to be on a trip with people I know & love.

 

In my experience with both commercial and private trips in the GC, two things can make for a better trip:
Drink more water and drink less ETOH.

 

Equally applicable to other trips and durations.

 

Ugh. So sorry, man. I have said “no” to far more trips than I have said “yes” to. On one, after talking about who was coming, I said “Sorry, I won’t be joining you.” The TL said “If you are declining because of the personnel on my trip, I don’t want you.”

Post trip, TL said “OMG, I wish I had listened.”

I always try to host a pre-trip gathering. No guarantee meeting folks in person, but it really helps. Once the asshat backed out of meeting the rest of the crew. (We were like “oh no,” and the next day he emailed the TL to back out.)