A little bitter, but word to the wise. Always think about who is on your trip and how long you can stand them😀

 

That sucks sorry man!!!

 

I feel your pain. How is it that someone who wants so badly to join the trip, and is so pleasant beforehand, can become such an asshole on the water? I really don’t get that part of a person’s personality.
Same thing happened to us this spring. Luckily though, we never saw them again past Bedrock, and the rest of the trip went beautifully.

 

Luckily though, we never saw them again past Bedrock

Why not? Did they go left??

 

Only two things that can ruin a river trip - really shitty weather (and if you have the right crew, not even that), and really shitty people. We can control one...

 

Interested what happened in both cases (Gunnyraft and Wallrat), but especially in the case that the group became split and traveled separately after Bedrock.

 

that's a bummer @Gunnyraft GC is a looooooooong time to spend with an unsavory personality

 

The craziest, most sociopathic people I've ever met lurked behind a seemingly normal disposition. There's something about group dynamics though that seems to chip into that veneer, and have actually had to call in a chopper to extract a toxic person from a situation the rest of us agreed was becoming dangerous. Never had this happen on a river trip, but sympathies to anyone that has (especially on the GC). Don't be afraid to spread the word on folks like this, as in my experience they tend to prey on the honest-intentioned and inclusive.

 

My personal rationale goes something like: If <person A> is lurking around on social media and desperate to find someone to go on a trip with, I wonder why it's so hard to find a group? We're mostly all pretty friendly, and we all want to go boating? So... what's up with <person A>? Desperate to go on a trip, difficulty finding a group, and using fancy gear as an incentive are all big red flags.

 

I hear what you're saying here, and I'm sure this rationale fits sometimes, especially depending on the level of "desperation".

I'll speak only for myself and give the alternate explanation: Being someone who joined the expedition rafting scene later in life, and who has moved a lot for work, I don't have a lot of friends (yet) who run trips and have open spots. So, for a few years until I do, I'll be stuck trying to find friends...on the socials. We're not all sociopaths trying to find our next victims. I got really lucky and got on an "all strangers" Grand trip in 2021 that went really well. Our TL was a genius at being able to judge personalities and build a group. So, while there was a bit of friction (when won't there be over 21 days?), it worked great and I'd go that route again. I won't speak for others - some of whom are on this very forum - but I think we'd all boat with one another again.

I guess the TL/DR version is that some 'strangers' looking for trips are actually decent folks who just haven't found their home - YET.

 

I’m so sorry you had this experience. I always shrugged off stories like this before. Who could be a problem on the river, even if they are insufferable elsewhere? I’ve since learned otherwise. Thankfully not in the Grand.

I’m conflicted about calling these (rare) folks out publicly. On one hand, I feel obligation to the community since safety issues usually ensue. On the other, the 2/3 issues I’ve had have been involuntary mental health problems with 0 self-awareness; it feels gross to put these people on blast.

I was on a stranger’s trip a couple years ago that easily could have had fatalities stemming from dishonesty about experience or maybe just extreme naivety from the TL. Intense conflict and a split trip was the result. Some complex moral dilemmas were rattling around in my head that week for sure. To what extent am I responsible for people who misrepresented themselves? What about naive passengers who were similarly duped? How much responsibility do I have to loved ones at home to avoid excessive risk, even if it means likely injury to people on the trip? At what point is it ethical to cut your losses and head downriver alone? Does abandoning a trip expose me to legal liability if someone later dies? Are we a collection of individuals or a cohesive unit with responsibility to each other? Do rescue skills always equal obligation? What if a kid is involved? In the background is the knowledge is that it’s ultimately my fault for not doing my own due diligence beforehand. Gets weird fast.

This is why checking references or having people vouch through not-too-many degrees of separation is so important to me (now). Lesson learned.

I’m crushed on your behalf, Gunnyraft. Awful to have such a special opportunity compromised by some BS. Hope your next trip is your best.

 

I’m conflicted about calling these (rare) folks out publicly. On one hand, I feel obligation to the community since safety issues usually ensue. On the other, the 2/3 issues I’ve had have been involuntary mental health problems with 0 self-awareness; it feels gross to put these people on blast.

..
This is why checking references or having people vouch through not-too-many degrees of separation is so important to me (now). Lesson learned.

I think this is probably the best solution. If someone can vouch honestly, we can generally take their word for it.

If someone is a bad apple, my guess is their former tripmates will remain silent or quietly recommend against them.

 

sucks!

 

Trips like yours........ create good judgment skills. 🐴

 

Sorry for the long post.... TLDR... Most people are awesome.... but VET VET VET the people you invite...



I learned to vet the fuck out of strangers before inviting them the hard way on my 2018 Grand trip...

We actually airlifted a crazy dude out that I had warning bells and red flags waving from the moment I met him. I even asked the PH she really wanted this dude on the trip before we left. He had his stuff strewn all over the airBNB and was smoking weed in a non-smoking house while everyone else was out working on getting ready for the trip. He was already arguing and being a dick with the TL (different then the PH) on rig day. Someone brought a boat for him since he was a poor dirtbag day trip guide and just couldn't stand anyone telling him how to rig the boat and was gonna make sure they knew it.

He was always throwing empty beer cans on the floor of the raft, wouldn't put the oars in the water and was always a mile behind the rest of the group. We had rough time on a long day made worse by all the camps near Nankoweap being taken plus most of the ones downstream and then he missed the eddy at camp once we actually found one. The kitchen was on his boat and he refused to help haul his boat up to camp (easy pull up a beach around a few rocks) and got into a yelling match with the guy who's boat he was carrying and then proceeded to talk shit about him all night and was talking about how he was gonna kick his ass. Other dude found out about it the next morning and kicked his ass off the boat and let someone else row it and made him ride with the PH who invited him.

Further down...near Blacktail... after dealing with his lazy ass, someone on his meal team went down to have a "come to Jesus" talk with him to get him off his ass...and dude flipped out and started attacking the guy, who was twice his size, and then had a full on temper tantrum mental break where he was throwing his shit in the river and began threatening to kick everyones ass, hurt himself, and all manner of other BS before stalkin off downstream and away from camp (across from Blacktail...basically cliffed out and nowhere really to go). At this point, basically everyone on the trip was uncomfortable with him being on the trip so we called dispatch with a Sat Phone and they agreed that it was probably just gonna keep escalating and agreed it was time for evac. It was too late for them to come safely that day but they said they would fly down and figure it out at 8am the next day. We didn't really see him that night, but he kinda came in and got coffee the next morning and asked what was going on but didn't know that his fate had already been decided till he heard the helicopter....at which time he proceeded to sling his coffee mug at the nearby cliff and have another bout of angry ranting.

A couple LEO rangers stepped out of the little Bumble Bee Helicopter the NPS uses in the Grand and proceeded to split up and one talked to the TL and PH and the other the Crazy dude. Needless to say, after hearing what all went down, they agreed that it was time for Crazy dude to no longer be in the Grand and that they would take him out of there. They weren't allowed to cuff him and said he would have to come willingly but that it would be best for us to move on downstream so he wouldn't have any other options. We asked what happened if he wasn't willing...and their response was "we love riding in the helicopter...we'll just leave him here for a night and come back in the morning and see if he's hungry". Needless to say...the rest of the trip, even though we had the usual drama of boat flips and other issues you see in the canyon, was much more pleasant from then on.


There was a thread a while back about a trip from hell where one of the trip members turned out to be kinda sociapathic and decided to "have fun" by deliberately going out of his way to manipulate people on the trip to get into arguments with each other. LIke... the dude just wanted to see the trip fall apart and watch the world burn around him kinda stuff. Talking shit about one person with another, then doing the same the other way and just plotting everyone against everyone else. They eventually figured out what he was doing and basically ousted him from the trip but not before it basically ruining the trip for everyone. I've heard of multiple cases of trips not getting along and one half of the trip not talking to the other half...to the degree of one half being on the upper beach the other half on the lower and the kitchen in the middle and taking turns cooking and eating. I forgot who it was... but there was one trip that was so bad that the Rangers gave them permission to split the trip up and camp in different camps. They had enough of everything for both halves to be able to get down the river and make food.

I do think these are exceptions and not the rule though. Most trips are amazing and everyone, for the most part, gets along swimmingly. That has been my experience on the 7 Grand trips I've been down so far. I've been on many many other multi-day trips and have only met a handful of people have made the "do not go on a trip with" list.

 

Holly crap! It’s happened to me as well and it’s no fun especially when your new and have your hands full in general. I started rafting late in life and my core friends are non rafters so…I know what it’s like to try and find a ride. Anyway that’s so gnarly to basically have to call the cops to come get a friend off the river!!! Someday it will end in a missing person or I wonder if it’s allready? I’d have left him stranded I think. I was reading a story about some guys on a dangerous long sailing voyage where they had to fight for their lives then keep the guy restrained until they landed 20+ days later while dude was beserk! Fuck…

 

It occurred to me on my latest trip that I was really glad my first trip down the Canyon was my first trip and not my 3rd or 4th or whatever. There was a lot of drama from the TL and another dude on the trip that I kind of overlooked because I was doing the canyon for the first time that wouldn't have been as easy to overlook on subsequent trips.

 

Been there. I would have done twice as many trips if I didn't think twice due to one unfortunate experience, my third trip. I was TL and two friends of friends were invited. They were both former guides. One guided on the GC, the other in Idaho. Guides, what could go wrong? We had a flip at Horn and with the two of them arguing about method, etc. it took us most of the day to right the craft. I have flipped since and realize, it not such a big deal, even an 18'er.
We camped at Granite. That night the flow went from summer to fall flows. The morning's mud wrestling match was something to behold. The Idaho guide's girlfriend fighting with the GC guide in the mud. While not perfect harmony, things calmed down after the flip and mud wrestling match. Oh, there was more drama, but well, I took over on one of the rafts and learned how to row. Worked for me.
But I am also much more careful with crew choices.

 

I was supposed to go on my first Grand trip this March with a buddy, his buddy I didn't know, and 14 other strangers. I discovered that they hadn't reserved their outfitter gear for the length of the permit (short by a day) and they had some personal vehicle shuttles in the group costs. When the payment to the outfitter was short and the TL was freaking out, I was asked by the friend of a friend to look into it and figure out who hadn't paid. I got the list of participants and realized that they were dividing the cost 16 ways, but only had 15 participants. My buddy raised some questions about costs and leadership, and we were unceremoniously kicked off the trip and blocked from communicating with the TL. I really feel like I dodged a bullet.
Serendipitously, the same friend and I got to do a trip last month with 10 of our good friends and 6 new amazing friends. We had a little on river carnage, but the group cohesion made that easy to work through. You know it's good when everyone is bummed to part ways after 21 days together. I couldn't have asked for a better crew of people for my first time. I kinda think group dynamic might be the most important consideration, right up there with experience. You can teach somebody to row. The rest, maybe not...
Sorry for those of y'all who have had to deal with shitty dynamics.

 

I always thought that trips that come apart were rare but I am finding out much more common than I thought. I've boated for 30 years and have had only two trips where things went really sideways (Grand Canyon, Middle Fork Salmon) and it was the same guy both times. He only became easy to get along with a year before he died from cancer. I could never figure out how you can be in such a beautiful place( any river) and be so unhappy yet he always was unhappy and tried his best to make everyone else suffer also. The term "Choose Wisely' really applies to long floats like the GC.

 

It’s just stress. I try and be honest and say I get stressed some. But others just get freaked out and are gone. I had a really old good friend stress out and he just walked off. Just like that he walked off . Leaving a rigged boat full of food and gear. He just walked away. At the time I was pissed . Wtf are you doing? Wtf am I supposed to do? How do I explain this? Was I really that bad? Now I realize his stress level just couldn’t handle the unknown and the situation and me too and iam actually glad he walked off day one rather than having a melt down in the middle or something? I really like my one buddy who is just matter of fact . I learned that as tl you need to give your group the option to choose your way. Lol. People want to be led it would seem and if it’s to democratic you’ll end up with two countries lol. Dude just left and I had to row his boat and my lovely wife got to row a loaded 16 foot raft by herself for 8 days! To which she said ,”that was to easy.” Lol . It’s stress is all. That’s why there’s one guy in the life raft that allways freaks out and eats all the rations.

 

give your group the option to choose your way

very well put

 

Never had anything close to these accounts happen on my private trips but I could have been that guy everyone else wanted to leave stranded on the beach and just didn’t know it.

On my commercial trips we observed a passenger profile that would alert us to the problem passenger and might apply to those of you who bring rando people on your trips.

If a person was traveling alone and had a unusual amount of special requests prior to the trip it would be a red flag. They were traveling alone for a reason.

They would try to fit in with the other passengers and when that didn’t work because of their personality quirks. They would try to buddy up with the crew. We would have to try and be nice because that’s what we get paid for. The would eventually catch on the we thought they were weird too and after the trip we would get the “letter” about how horrible the trip was and how awful the guides were. While responses from the rest of the group would be the normal best trip of my life the guides were the best yada yada yada.

 

On my commercial trips we observed a passenger profile that would alert us to the problem passenger and might apply to those of you who bring rando people on your trips.

If a person was traveling alone and had a unusual amount of special requests prior to the trip it would be a red flag. They were traveling alone for a reason.

I’ve never had the displeasure of needing to have someone evacuated from a trip, but would concur that the difficult people I have seen on private trips to fit this profile. People who are generally easy-going in the planning process tend to be the generally easy-going people on the trip.

If people are pushing their weight around or have unusual demands in the planning process, that should be a huge red flag that the same personality will occur during the trip.

 

This is one of my biggest fears about a grand trip. That’s a LLOOONNNGGG time to spend in really close proximity to someone you don’t know.

 

I heard a story once... friend of a friend type deal... of a Grand trip on which two couples each independently broke up during the trip. Sick of each other or whatever. They had each shown up as a couple with their own raft, own gear, etc... so, it was a bit awkward when individuals had to find new rafts to ride on, new tentmates, etc, during the trip. Well, lo and behold, by the end of the trip, each of the couples had re-shuffled their coupleship into hooking up with the other person from the other couple! So... well, at least everybody had a raft to ride on and a tent to sleep in. I wonder how the car rides home worked out though...

 

Yahaha!

 

After we finished our Grand trip, minus the two asshats, we are both firmly of the opinion that it wasn’t worth bringing two randoms along for “safety”…which was maybe 75% of the reason we went with a four boat/four person roster. We didn’t think that just two of us could reflip an 18’ gearboat without unloading everything, or waiting for a passing party. Turns out asshat #1 was the only guy that couldn’t keep his boat upright.

The other 25% was just to give someone else a chance to do the trip.
Never again. The permit doesn’t need to be filled up. Bring just a few proven people, and the trip will be a success.

 

We started rafting on our own without friends and have really appreciated when groups open themselves up to bringing unknowns like us. Get where you’re coming from on this but hope this isn’t too wide spread of a feeling or I’ll never get to go down the grand!

Also really enjoying hearing someof the details. Too many posts about asshattery are just teases and innuendo without the juicy deets.

 

Fascinating insights.

I have a good friend who some years back he was in his late 40's and was inexperienced with rafting but knowing how adventurous and skilled he was other outdoor pursuits I thought he could handle rowing a gear raft on a low water Main Salmon trip no problem. Turns out I was inexperienced as a TL as well and couldn't have been more wrong - the stress and worry took a huge toll the first day to the point he couldn't sleep much that night being so anxious and worried about rowing the next day. I was too slow to realize how hard that first day had been for him, how much he was just fighting against the water with the oars and only realized later he had big blisters on his hands. My teenage boys split the rowing duties for the next 4 days and did great while my friend rode in the front of the raft I was rowing, happy as a clam.

He later told me that scouting Black Creek rapid and then riding thru it my raft was 1 of the 2 scariest things he had ever done in his life. That comment completely floored me - I would have never expected it. I have joined him on single track rides where I have been terrified of dying and swearing I'll never ride that trail again only to see him calm as can be, a sincere million dollar smile on his face, gushing about how awesome the trail is.

I have come to realize that we are largely products of our own environments and experiences and we each have our unique comfort zones. I've been running rivers since I was a teenager, he's been riding since he was a teenager. What's an easy casual trip for me is nerve wracking for him (IF he's behind the oars). Throw in the many other variables of a long river trip and the results can be very surprising.

 

I've been invited as a random, and invited randoms on some of my trips. I'm now good friends with all of them.

My heart breaks when I see these stories of randoms not working out.