[Montet202]

My wife and I celebrated our 50th wedding anniversary not long ago, and somebody asked us what was the basis of that success. My response was two words - flexibility and forgiveness.

So what does that have to do with group dynamics on a river trip? Well I would say it has a lot to do with it. People with exceptionally rigid personality traits and behavior patterns often find it difficult to mesh with others on trips like those in the Grand Canyon -- where cooperative effort and accommodation are necessary for daily success and overall enjoyment. And everybody makes mistakes, or displays minor behavioral characteristics that may not be everybody's cup of tea.

If you can't be flexible, and you're not willing to forgive the occasional foibles and mistakes of others, then it's likely you're not going to be a good fit for an extended wilderness-type river trip. Those are the kind of traits I'd have my antenna up for as I considered people for a trip.

So say you have a close friend you want on a trip, but know he/she has a somewhat rigid personality. What is your approach to mitigating possible conflict stemming from that person? While it’s easy to say, “I’d never invite that person,” the reality is that those people are on almost every trip regardless.

 

[Pinchecharlie]

Iam a firm believer now that all people just want direction. The way you direct them is the challenge. It’s like the coaching thing. What and how do they respond with there best. A challenge. For sure what I learned as a first time TL is you absolutely have to have hard fast expectations and you have to delegate and lead. I just figured we where all friendly and we where all on a river and who cares and it was to stressful for everyone to deal. As soon as I made it jobs and I made it mandatory to do this that the other people actually relaxed more.? I dunno but the guy who made us miserable was just in happy doing anything and was allways the loudest. I heard from his friend not long ago about how it was the best trip of his life….so handling stress and learning how to coach strengths and weaknesses is a life long challenge it would seem. I can usually tell when iam not liked and just excuse myself lol. I think I’ll do some easier rivers solo in the coming years just to have that stress and challenge.

 

[richp]

Montet, there's no one crisp, clear answer to that question, because people are different.

The relationship you have with your friend, your knowledge of how that person may or may not have successfully participated in other similar activities, your knowledge of the other people involved in the trip -- all are going to play into how you handle that decision.

As a sort of a shot in the dark though, I would say that a heart to heart talk with that person would be the starting point. Set out your knowledge of the trip, the demands that are going to be placed on them, the other types of people that are going to be involved, and then gauge his or her reaction. And of course I suppose in that evaluation, you also should estimate their possible reaction to any intervention you might have to engage in on the river with them, along with how they would react to the possibility that you might not include them on the trip after you've had this discussion.

In one way, this sort of falls back on that old thing about the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few. How important is it to you to have this one person on the trip, when there is some possibility that their presence will diminish in any important way your and everyone else's enjoyment of the Grand Canyon experience?

 

[Montet202]

Montet, there's no one crisp, clear answer to that question, because people are different.

The relationship you have with your friend, your knowledge of how that person may or may not have successfully participated in other similar activities, your knowledge of the other people involved in the trip -- all are going to play into how you handle that decision.

As a sort of a shot in the dark though, I would say that a heart to heart talk with that person would be the starting point. Set out your knowledge of the trip, the demands that are going to be placed on them, the other types of people that are going to be involved, and then gauge his or her reaction. And of course I suppose in that evaluation, you also should estimate their possible reaction to any intervention you might have to engage in on the river with them, along with how they would react to the possibility that you might not include them on the trip after you've had this discussion.

In one way, this sort of falls back on that old thing about the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few. How important is it to you to have this one person on the trip, when there is some possibility that their presence will diminish in any important way your and everyone else's enjoyment of the Grand Canyon experience?

That’s why this stuff fascinated me: there are so many variables that make every answer difficult. There is never any certain fix, and never any hard and fast determining factor in a person’s qualification or disqualification from an invite. There are so many variables, and, I believe, you have to apply as many tools as you know how to in order to minimize conflict. It’ll never be 100%, but if you can go from 40% to 60% with solid pre-trip planning on who’s in the group, and another 10% with managing expectations, and another 10% with communication, etc…

 

[IDriverRunner]

This is a fascinating thread for several reasons. For starters, I’m a 20 year coach and occasionally do clinics to train other coaches. I find team building and group dynamics fascinating and have poured countless hour into learning how to build successful groups through books, clinics, podcasts, conversations with piers, etc. I love this stuff! Though I’ve only put what I’ve learned into building teams of high school and middle school kids. I am currently planning for a March Grand trip as the PH and TL. This is my first Grand trip, and first time planning a trip longer than 8 days.

On one hand I am nervous about the group dynamic, but also stoked to see if we can build a great team and get through a 25 day trip without a hitch. (Though I think a little adversity always makes a team stronger.)

So there has been a lot of talk of ’randos’, and other factors, but what really makes for a successful trip? I doubt very much it has everything to do with luck, or having randos, or not.

One of my favorite books on culture states that every successful group culture must have three things: safety (of both the physical and personal variety), shared vulnerability, and a common goal. What was lacking in these calamitous trips? I’m in my mid 40’s and have had great trips. I suspect, had I been on these trips in my 20’s, the drama might have been considerably worse? Is that the case with these trips? I’d be curious to know the average age in the groups having these issues. What other factors were to blame? It sounds like one of the stories had drama stemming from poor organization in communication and management of funds, by the TL, that let to trouble at the get go.

What do you think are the factors that lead to either a successful or unsuccessful trip? Chore assignments, gear lists, itineraries, and such are all things designed to relieve stress, communicate a plan, and to minimize unknowns to ultimately mitigate conflict. What else are you doing to mitigate conflict?

For those of you who run commercial multi-day trips, what are some of your strategies for conflict resolution? How do you identify and head off potential conflicts?

For those who have been TL on a number of long expeditions, be it the Grand, or other boating or non boating trips, what are your keys to a well run trip?

I suspect malcontent is bred mostly from lack of communication. How do you ensure everyone is on the same page?

I would love to hear of some trip drama where issues were dealt with successfully, and how.

I can only speak for week long trips (never done the Grand), but setting clear expectations before the trip has been key for my trips. Having all meals/groover duties/clean up crew/etc lined up beforehand has been real nice as it takes a lot of the pressure off during the actual trip. Like was mentioned earlier, stress during trips can be overwhelming for a lot of people. A lot of factors can play into that stress, but if you can mitigate stress with pre-planning, it can make the trip much more enjoyable for everyone.

 

[Electric-Mayhem]

Just expect an essay every time from me on this topic I guess... TLDR... being intentional about maintaining a good attitude is a primary key to success...

After 7 trips down the canyon... I've noticed that you really start to notice each person's personality traits, good or bad, and ignoring them becomes harder as the trip goes on. I think the conflicts come when people get to the end of their rope and react. Those little annoyances and things that bug you really come into focus after 8-10 days on the trip and you still have the rest of the trip to go.

In regards to the incident I profiled earlier in this thread... that individual STARTED conflicts before the trip was even really under way and was setting off all kinds of warning bells. I'm not sure there was anything we could do because the guy had some pretty serious psychoses that no amount of good communication or good team building was going to remedy. I'm sure we could have dealt with it better and perhaps it wouldn't have turned out as it had...but that dude had some serious stuff to deal with.

The canyon will highlight what you bring with you into it, good or bad. If you go into with positive intentions it can be a hugely liberating and life changing experience but it can also bring things out in yourself you never knew were there.

Team Dynamics are obviously very important, but it starts with choosing the right team at the beginning and working from there. Bringing the wrong team member can have a huge impact and can snowball out of control quickly.

I think the biggest thing I've learned is that you have to be intentional about dealing with "Drama" early on and seeing why its happening and working it out well before it escalates beyond a minor conflict. Everyone on the trip has to participate in this and go out of their way to be intentionally inclusive with everyone, intentional about tamping down the things they are annoyed with or find irritating, and intentional about maintaining enthusiasm and a good attitude. It isn't always gonna be easy after a long day of pushing through the wind or after a windstorm comes through and knocks all your stuff down and covers it in sand... but it isn't that hard to realign your point of view if you are intentional about it.

IMHO, this should actually be discussed at the beginning of the trip and not just assumed that people will do it. The further into the trip you get... the stronger this attitude has to get. Its not easy and I'll admit I struggle with it sometimes... but making sure that you maintain that intentionality through the end of the trip is important. I'm not saying you have to have daily discussions about it and I think just allowing people to relax and enjoy the trip is important...but it should kind of be in the back of people's minds when they are interacting with other trip participants. A certain level of tolerance for personality differences is also important.

I don't think the TL should have to make every decision or deal with every conflict, but at the end of the day it is their trip and their wishes should count more since, in the eyes of the NPS and Federal Government, they are responsible for the trip. I know of multiple times TL's have been ticketed for things that one of their trip participants did without the TL knowing about it at the time. That said, I've also heard some horror stories about overly controlling TL's that feel the need to exert their will on the rest of the trip and do not react well to people pushing back. Its a fine line between being assertive and tyrannical sometimes. Its also very possible for the TL to lack assertiveness at the right time and just let everyone walk all over them and it can just as detrimental to the trip...so its a line you have to walk.

One of my biggest pet peeves on a long trip like this are the people who do the "Fake Angry" thing. I've been on a few trips with people who do that and it always sets me on edge. Someone will say something and they'll start yelling and screaming like they are angry and then laugh it off. Their close friends know they are fucking around... but the people who don't know them as well, like me, have a hard time telling if they are serious about it or not. Even worse is if they act similarly when they are actually upset. I had a guy like that on my first trip and most of the time he was joking.... but 1 out of 5 or 6 times he was actually upset and it made for some very awkward and uncomfortable situations.

I'll say again... this is all made easier by choosing the right people for you trip and listening to warning bells that go off as you get ready for it. I'm sure most people who had bad incidents on a trip can think back and recognize a warning bell (or claxons and strobes) that they decided to ignore because "they won't be that bad". Every trip has a different emphasis and you just have to make sure the participants are all on the same page.

For me, the biggest thing I need to know is party level i.e. drugs, booze, bedtime, etc. I'm usually ok with a little bit of partying, but I don't need it every night and I like it sorta mellow. Some people don't like any drugs or even booze... many REALLY like it and its a rager every night of the trip. Usually it's somewhere in between.... but if you come on a trip expecting one end of the spectrum and the rest of the trip is on the other side... there might be some conflict. I personally don't mind a bit of drugs and alcohol on the trip but I want it to be mellow and not a problem if I choose not partake at any given time. I prefer it at camp and not on the river but undrestand that people are gonna be drinking a few beers while floating.

Oh...and the Grand Canyon IS NOT the right place to quit a bad habit. I know a few people, who have never smoked a cigarette in their life, who bring a pack of cigarettes on the trip just in case a smoker runs out or has decided a 18 day potentially high stress rafting trip was a great time to finally quit smoking. Its an amazing place to explore yourself and change your life... but maybe going cold turkey in that environment isn't the best way to go.

 

[Wallrat]

This is a fascinating thread for several reasons. For starters, I’m a 20 year coach and occasionally do clinics to train other coaches. I find team building and group dynamics fascinating and have poured countless hour into learning how to build successful groups through books, clinics, podcasts, conversations with piers, etc. I love this stuff! Though I’ve only put what I’ve learned into building teams of high school and middle school kids. I am currently planning for a March Grand trip as the PH and TL. This is my first Grand trip, and first time planning a trip longer than 8 days.

On one hand I am nervous about the group dynamic, but also stoked to see if we can build a great team and get through a 25 day trip without a hitch. (Though I think a little adversity always makes a team stronger.)

So there has been a lot of talk of ’randos’, and other factors, but what really makes for a successful trip? I doubt very much it has everything to do with luck, or having randos, or not.

One of my favorite books on culture states that every successful group culture must have three things: safety (of both the physical and personal variety), shared vulnerability, and a common goal. What was lacking in these calamitous trips? I’m in my mid 40’s and have had great trips. I suspect, had I been on these trips in my 20’s, the drama might have been considerably worse? Is that the case with these trips? I’d be curious to know the average age in the groups having these issues. What other factors were to blame? It sounds like one of the stories had drama stemming from poor organization in communication and management of funds, by the TL, that let to trouble at the get go.

What do you think are the factors that lead to either a successful or unsuccessful trip? Chore assignments, gear lists, itineraries, and such are all things designed to relieve stress, communicate a plan, and to minimize unknowns to ultimately mitigate conflict. What else are you doing to mitigate conflict?

For those of you who run commercial multi-day trips, what are some of your strategies for conflict resolution? How do you identify and head off potential conflicts?

For those who have been TL on a number of long expeditions, be it the Grand, or other boating or non boating trips, what are your keys to a well run trip?

I suspect malcontent is bred mostly from lack of communication. How do you ensure everyone is on the same page?

I would love to hear of some trip drama where issues were dealt with successfully, and how.

IMHO, if you find people who are selfless, they will be good team members. If you give them chores before the trip and they’re done thoroughly, quickly, and without complaints, that person will probably be good to have along.
Then you get these folks who are tired after rowing all day in the hot sun, and no force on earth will get them out of their chair or make them stop drinking beer. Because, fuck it, I’m tired, let those other guys cook. One of those two types of people should be invited on your trip.

 

[Montet202]

Just expect an essay every time from me on this topic I guess... TLDR... being intentional about maintaining a good attitude is a primary key to success...

After 7 trips down the canyon... I've noticed that you really start to notice each person's personality traits, good or bad, and ignoring them becomes harder as the trip goes on. I think the conflicts come when people get to the end of their rope and react. Those little annoyances and things that bug you really come into focus after 8-10 days on the trip and you still have the rest of the trip to go.

In regards to the incident I profiled earlier in this thread... that individual STARTED conflicts before the trip was even really under way and was setting off all kinds of warning bells. I'm not sure there was anything we could do because the guy had some pretty serious psychoses that no amount of good communication or good team building was going to remedy.

The canyon will highlight what you bring with you into it, good or bad. If you go into with positive intentions it can be a hugely liberating and life changing experience but it can also bring things out in yourself you never knew were there.

Team Dynamics are obviously very important, but it starts with choosing the right team at the beginning and working from there. Bringing the wrong team member can have a huge impact and can snowball out of control quickly.

I think the biggest thing I've learned is that you have to be intentional about dealing with "Drama" early on and seeing why its happening and working it out well before it escalates beyond a minor conflict. Everyone on the trip has to participate in this and go out of their way to be intentionally inclusive with everyone, intentional about tamping down the things they are annoyed with or find irritating, and intentional about maintaining enthusiasm and a good attitude.

IMHO, this should actually be discussed at the beginning of the trip and not just assumed that people will do it. The further into the trip you get... the stronger this attitude has to get. Its not easy and I'll admit I struggle with it sometimes... but making sure that you maintain that intentionality through the end of the trip is important. I'm not saying you have to have daily discussions about it and I think just allowing people to relax and enjoy the trip is important...but it should kind of be in the back of peoples minds when they are interacting with other trip participants. A certain level of tolerance for personality differences is also important.

I don't think the TL should have to make every decision or deal with every conflict, but at the end of the day it is their trip and their wishes should count more. That said, I've heard some horror stories about overly controlling TL's that feel the need to exert their will on the rest of the trip and do not react well to people pushing back. Its a fine line between being assertive and tyrannical sometimes. Its also very possible for the TL to lack assertiveness at the right time and just let everyone walk all over them and it can just as detrimental to the trip...so its a line you have to walk.

One of my biggest pet peeves on a long trip like this are the people who do the "Fake Angry" thing. I've been on a few trips with people who do that and it always sets me on edge. Someone will say something and they'll start yelling and screaming like they are angry and then laugh it off. Their close friends know they are fucking around... but the people who don't know them as well, like me, have a hard time telling if they are serious about it or not. Even worse is if they act similarly when they are actually upset. I had a guy like that on my first trip and most of the time he was joking.... but 1 out of 5 or 6 times he was actually upset and it made for some very awkward and uncomfortable situations.

I'll say again... this is all made easier by choosing the right people for you trip and listening to warning bells that go off as you get ready for it. I'm sure most people who had bad incidents on a trip can think back and recognize a warning bell (or claxons and strobes) that they decided to ignore because "they won't be that bad". Every trip has a different emphasis and you just have to make sure the participants are all on the same page.

For me, the biggest thing I need to know is party level i.e. drugs, booze, bedtime, etc. I'm usually ok with a little bit of partying, but I don't need it every night and I like it sorta mellow. Some people don't like any drugs or even booze... many REALLY like it and its a rager every night of the trip. Usually it's somewhere in between.... but if you come on a trip expecting one end of the spectrum and the rest of the trip is on the other side... there might be some conflict. I personally don't mind a bit of drugs and alcohol on the trip but I want it to be mellow and not a problem if I choose not partake at any given time. I prefer it at camp and not on the river but undrestand that people are gonna be drinking a few beers while floating.

Honestly enjoy and appreciate your essays.

 

[Montet202]

This is an interesting article on group dynamics:

Group dynamics: implications for successful expeditions

A successful expedition requires technical ability as well as the ability to get along with others. Many expeditions are unsuccessful because attention is not directed toward the dynamics between group members. Positive relationships can assist an expedition to meet its goals, and may even...

www.wemjournal.org

 

[Pinchecharlie]

Iam not trying to pick a fight…but…people really do have different ideas on what’s fun and what’s not…lol. So if your going to do 135 mile days from 5am to 9am and then bark bark bark like a drill Sargent…er…or if you wanna do super dangerous stuff in dangerous weather ect…that’s something you should explain and if you didn’t you can’t really blame a guy for not wanting to do that!? I am reading this and I’ve never been on the Grand Canyon but my idea is maybe completely different than another’s so I guess I was a little wrong when I was a TL I should have said what I wanted and didn’t. I have a bad habit of thinking that everyone thinks like me …bad !!! Lol. So yeah you gotta communicate honestly! So for me I need you to know I want to relax more than have a expedition lol!! So what happens when you get mileage wrong and you have to push everyday in wind ? Lol! That’s when you really see character lol! Oh man all these bad grand accident this year. How can you deal with that kinda stuff without it ruining people. Terrible

 

[hysideguy67]

Good stuff, good thread, thanks all. I'll add that I think it's important to remember if there's tension on any trip and you can't figure out why or who it may be time to go down to the river, find a calm pool, look down and see what's in the reflection. Time to reassess attitude. I've put myself in timeout (rarely) but just try to be self aware

 

[Wallrat]

Good stuff, good thread, thanks all. I'll add that I think it's important to remember if there's tension on any trip and you can't figure out why or who it may be time to go down to the river, find a calm pool, look down and see what's in the reflection. Time to reassess attitude. I've put myself in timeout (rarely) but just try to be self aware

A polite was of saying that if it’s day five and you don’t know who the asshole is…it’s you. Or maybe Charlie, the Nazi drill instructor. I hate it when he breaks out the whip.

 

[MT4Runner]

I’m conflicted about calling these (rare) folks out publicly. On one hand, I feel obligation to the community since safety issues usually ensue. On the other, the 2/3 issues I’ve had have been involuntary mental health problems with 0 self-awareness; it feels gross to put these people on blast.

..
This is why checking references or having people vouch through not-too-many degrees of separation is so important to me (now). Lesson learned.

I think this is probably the best solution. If someone can vouch honestly, we can generally take their word for it.

If someone is a bad apple, my guess is their former tripmates will remain silent or quietly recommend against them.

 

[jbLaramie]

Many of you knew bighorn1478, who passed last year. One of the people writing on the buzz about his passing had invited Scott (bighorn) on a trip and said that Scott’s comment on the invite was “We will not get drunk, run through the camp naked or talk politics. We will participate in conversations and do our fair share of camp chores. We will do our best to make sure you are glad you invited us and will return the favor in the future."

That statement has stuck with me due to both the circumstances in which it was related and because it is an accurate reflection what I knew of Scott. Have felt like that’s the target.

 

[LZMJRAFT]

The thing about the GC is that it really can be physically exhausting, depending on the flows and winds and hikes some days you get to camp just whooped. Some days are also mentally exhausting at the big rapids and if there is carnage. And this increases as your skin protests and the daily rowing wears yiu out. I know my capacity for BS reduces greatly over the 3 weeks. The best GC trips I've been on have a set rotating work schedule for all participants usually agreed in advance so no surprises. This establishes the expectation. Then you can allow some flexibility for things like someone who had a really bad day (carnage, scorpion sting, etc.) But having the heart to heart with slackers early really helps with group morale, I have found in the past as the TL that a heart to heart with people shows that you care and are proactively working on a solution to include them in the group. My 2c.

 

[mountain boy]

I almost knew before trip I should have pulled out?!no pun intended… but there I was , day 6, Bright Angle, the only exit…. 116 degrees. I couldn’t carry enough water to get my ass out if there. All I remember is get close to the Zoroaster Red stuff running left at Crystal. Love you Buzzard People

Man, that type of heat is awful. I was invited down the GC for mid-july trip, didn't care for the dynamics of the group and took a pass. So glad I did, 113-115 degree weather for the whole trip. A friend who went said it was awful. I used to work the Wyoming oilfields and built a plant on top of a mountain at about 8000ft level, snowed in June and in August up there, I can take 40" below weather all day long and like it. I cannot handle much over 104", just can't do it..

 

[Pinchecharlie]

It does take a certain kind of person to endure a. Hard trip. Nevermind a trip that is in design even harder or dangerous or both !!! I think I may now use the excuse that iam fancy and have outgrown full on sufferfests! It’s funny how some you think will need help thrive and some you think will thrive need help. My wife says the same thing about middle aged guys who’ve never been married -rigid. She rowed into a strong wind for 8 days in hot sun and only once said ,”this sucks.” Lol! Girls are usually better at the mundane suffering than boys ? It is kinda hard to be perky when your getting your ass kicked and I know my group ditched dinner one night and just drank a beer and went to bed lol!! Maybe you just have to have had that kind of experience to know you’ll be ok. Marry a small town Montana girl!!!!

 

[Andy H.]

...I would say that a heart to heart talk with that person would be the starting point. Set out your knowledge of the trip, the demands that are going to be placed on them, the other types of people that are going to be involved, and then gauge his or her reaction. And of course I suppose in that evaluation, you also should estimate their possible reaction to any intervention you might have to engage in on the river with them, along with how they would react to the possibility that you might not include them on the trip after you've had this discussion.

In one way, this sort of falls back on that old thing about the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few. How important is it to you to have this one person on the trip, when there is some possibility that their presence will diminish in any important way your and everyone else's enjoyment of the Grand Canyon experience?

Thanks for stopping by, Rich. Good advice.

A primary aspect of being a TL is to make sure everyone's on the same page with your "vision" of the trip - party scene, chill, whatever, and that also includes what the experience will be like in terms of workload.

A thought I had while reading through this was that if you're in the position to go grab a beer with a potential invitee, ask them what they want and come back from the bar with a different kind of beer. How they react may portend how they'll be on the trip when things aren't to their exact liking.

 

[jbLaramie]

This is an interesting article on group dynamics:

Group dynamics: implications for successful expeditions

A successful expedition requires technical ability as well as the ability to get along with others. Many expeditions are unsuccessful because attention is not directed toward the dynamics between group members. Positive relationships can assist an expedition to meet its goals, and may even...

www.wemjournal.org

good read

 

[DismalRiverRunner]

I have dreams of a GC trip and will probably be a grateful random. I have planned quite a few outdoor excursions from multiple day canoe trips to backpacking and this last spring even a bikepacking trip. I always tell people no matter how great or shitty the trip turns out I just ask they start each day with a smile...