[dirtbagkayaker]

The industry has done it to itself. Its no secrete that anyone who buys a new kayak is paying the way for pro boaters to trot around the world. And by in large the pro boats are one step away from thugs so big sponsors for the most part don't want to be involved with kayaking. Just too many huge pro budgets for a sport with such a small following.

 

[storm11]

I think a lot of this has to do with the advent of the SUP. SUP cuts into the kayak market significantly as these are the same people that are would be kayakers or kayaking converts to SUP.

Kayaking is not for everyone and the learning curve is significant. Although the costs of SUP are similar, it's more approachable to the mainstream, is entertaining even on easier water and because it is in its relative infancy, the gap between beginner and advanced is not as far apart as in kayaking.

There is a reason Jackson is building SUP's, the Payatte River Games didn't have freestyle kayaking and and Dane went to Cascade instead of Salida.

At the moment perhaps. But I also think that SUP will somewhat reinvigorate the whitewater market a bit as well, much in the same way snowboarding revived the dying ski industry.

SUP is getting a lot more people into paddle sports and out on the water. Many of them are venturing into the river. Many of them will realize how limited a SUP really is on the river (swimming all the time sucks, gear capacity is limited, and the range of flows that are "doable" on a SUP is much narrower than a kayak/raft/canoe for most people) and those people will look towards kayaking / rafting / canoeing to fill that gap that SUP doesn't really cover.

 

[TonyM]

Yea, it's the millionaire pro kayakers that are the problem. Seriously, if you believe this you know nothing. WW sales have been dwindling for years, SUP has been doubling year after year. SUP will level off soon, but it has taken sales, support , marketing and r&d from the WW kayak market. I want to see LL succeed, even though I am no longer a dealer. Shane, Woody, Obie, Ben, Crom, Pat and the rest are all great people. I'm not sure what needs to change, but videos of people Kayaking 100ft. Waterfalls does not make the sport look accessible to your average joe. Girls in bikinis on boards look way better. I personally feel I have a SUP shop these days with a kayaking habit. Breaks my heart. And for the record, I Am A Kayaker.

 

[Phil U.]

Yea, it's the millionaire pro kayakers that are the problem. Seriously, if you believe this you know nothing. WW sales have been dwindling for years, SUP has been doubling year after year. SUP will level off soon, but it has taken sales, support , marketing and r&d from the WW kayak market. I want to see LL succeed, even though I am no longer a dealer. Shane, Woody, Obie, Ben, Crom, Pat and the rest are all great people. I'm not sure what needs to change, but videos of people Kayaking 100ft. Waterfalls does not make the sport look accessible to your average joe. Girls in bikinis on boards look way better. I personally feel I have a SUP shop these days with a kayaking habit. Breaks my heart. And for the record, I Am A Kayaker.

Thank you for that, Tony.

 

[Juan De Confluence]

My 2 cents

Sure the industry did this to themselves, those pros are out there livin it up international style on your dime. What was that new kayak movie called this year? I mean think about it, $1200 per kayak, where does all that money go? These guys probably had to hire people just to stuff the cash into suitcases that the pros can take on vacation.

Do you want to know the real reasons the whitewater kayak industry is faltering? Heres my top ten list.

10. Domestic manufacturing - These meth heads don't deserve $15/hour
9. Poverty Boaters - Cheap bastards ruin everything
8. Products are too durable - swaps are full of 10-15 year old boats
7. fulfilling too many warranty claims - lookin at You KSC
6. People get skeered - 'cause they're pussies
5. White people - enough said
4. No Community - Its all on facebook now.
3. Leaky Boats - they suck
2. Most of our heroes are dead. - or will be eventually
1. Fall down Paddleboarding is more fun

The reality is that whitewater kayaking is a niche of a niche. There are no more than 20-30K active ww kayakers in all of the USA. This is how it is and how it will always be. Count the users at a river park...kayakers are less than 5%. IF you don't want the sport of kayaking to die, than you should teach some friends how to kayak. Most of them will give up, but you can scavenge their gear.

And just a note the first 2 kayaks I owned, until they broke multiple times were a Prijon t-slalom, and a Prijon Hurricaine... ALL boats break when you beat the shit out of them.

juan

 

[68gts]

My local dealer told ne this was coming months ago. What he told me was coming is now occurring.

 

[Dwave]

Yea, it's the millionaire pro kayakers that are the problem. Seriously, if you believe this you know nothing. WW sales have been dwindling for years, SUP has been doubling year after year. SUP will level off soon, but it has taken sales, support , marketing and r&d from the WW kayak market. I want to see LL succeed, even though I am no longer a dealer. Shane, Woody, Obie, Ben, Crom, Pat and the rest are all great people. I'm not sure what needs to change, but videos of people Kayaking 100ft. Waterfalls does not make the sport look accessible to your average joe. Girls in bikinis on boards look way better. I personally feel I have a SUP shop these days with a kayaking habit. Breaks my heart. And for the record, I Am A Kayaker.

I agree with JMack and TonyM's threads on this one. There is no genre in the outdoor industry like whitewater kayaking. What other outdoor sport has there customers beating the crap out of their "new" equipment, breaking it, then demanding a free replaceable warranty item? Um..."Hey ski shop I broke the skis I bought from you bombing down this gnarly face. Are you going to warranty them for free" or "Hey climbing shop, I blew apart this BD Cam taking a huge whipper so you're gonna replace it for free yes?". Granted the pricing structure is different between the items yet the expected outcomes is not realistic. Also, the used kayak market is flooded with boats that are easily half price of retail with little significant design change in the past 10 yrs. When I hear at OR that sales are down (and that's the tool used as the measure of growth/decline) it's new sales not used boat sales. Can't trace the used boat sales. Industry analysts are seeing a flat or declining trend in sales mainly in part because of the used boat market.

Other parts of the kayak market that affect it's growth:
1) can't breathe when you're upside down and guess what...you're upside down a lot. this tends to freak people out unlike other sports where no matter how out of control you get...you're still breathing.

2) water dependent so kayakers tend to travel a lot to get their enjoyment OR don't live near a reliable enough water source

3) competitions are not viewer friendly. every non kayaker has no clue what's going on at the playspot and also...manicured playspots are silly. yes they're fun to play in as a paddler but they're about as much fun to watch as say watching a golfer put balls into a cup over and over again. something the WWGP will attract a greater viewing audience because of the dynamic nature of it...just gotta get it more exposure.

4) it's an adrenaline rush of a different kind that taps into a much more primordial part of the brain. probably that under water thing again.

5) all the mainstream media hypes the highest level of performance of the sport. it portrays the sport as very extreme rather than the reality that most river trips are mellow and fun. it's who your with not what you paddle. when people ask me about paddling, it's always how gnarly it is...rather than how awesome it is to get out and paddler fun water with your best friends and family.

6) like no other sport, kayakers of all economic backgrounds are inherent dirt bags. both a bonus and a detriment.

Cheers and get out there !!!!

 

[dirtbagkayaker]

I get that many of you want to believe that the SUP market is killing the kayaking industry. I say piff! SUPs target a different market altogether. Like my 60 year old mom and my 12 daughter and everyone in between. Whitewater kayaking appeals to a much smaller group. I get that you all don't believe pro deals hurt the industry and don't get that you can not spread the cost of even 10 or 15 pro boaters over a very small white water population. What is killing the white water industry is super high prices. You can buy a plastic Kiwi kayak at the local sporting goods store for $300 new. That kayak has more plastic in it and was built with the same type of mold in the same manufacturing process. Why is it $800 cheaper? Its pro deals and over paid research (which again is pro deals in a different light). Sorry but even broke pros globe trotting will drag down any small industry. The model is not sustainable.

 

[soggy_tortillas]

Good time to get your kids into kayaking.

 

[Phil U.]

I get that many of you want to believe that the SUP market is killing the kayaking industry. I say piff! SUPs target a different market altogether. Like my 60 year old mom and my 12 daughter and everyone in between. Whitewater kayaking appeals to a much smaller group. I get that you all don't believe pro deals hurt the industry and don't get that you can not spread the cost of even 10 or 15 pro boaters over a very small white water population. What is killing the white water industry is super high prices. You can buy a plastic Kiwi kayak at the local sporting goods store for $300 new. That kayak has more plastic in it and was built with the same type of mold in the same manufacturing process. Why is it $800 cheaper? Its pro deals and over paid research (which again is pro deals in a different light). Sorry but even broke pros globe trotting will drag down any small industry. The model is not sustainable.

I don't expect to change your mind but I do want to respond so others aren't misled.

For background, I've been around the pro scene for 20 years. That means I've seen the glory years and the cycles of "hard" years. I was the primary sponsor of one of our best freestyle athletes and he came of age when there was actually a little, very little, money available to pros. Pros are not globe trotting and living high on the hog off of their boat sponsors. The only company that really even has a pro team these days is Jackson and they are hardly suffering for it. And calling any member of their team a "thug" just shows how little you know. LL has had one of the tightest sponsorship budgets so they are hardly struggling because of all the pros coasting on their dime. As I said before, there are multiple factors at play but when Boyce died everything changed for LL. Most of the rest of this thread is just people expounding on their particular ww industry view projected on this news from LL.

 

[Chief Niwot]

It's not fall down paddle boarding reducing the WW kayak niche, it is the resurgence of the open canoe, especially on the eastern side of the country. The WW canoe is making a come back, look at the success of BlackFly, Esquif, Big Dog, Silverbirch canoes. At some point WW FDP'ers tired of falling down will also be moving into canoes. They already know how to work an advanced single bladed paddle, no entrapment feeling, no skirt, safer, etc. And kayakers are making the switch too, kayak videos with braces on both sides gets a little boring. You can watch 100s of kayakers paddling class V, yawn. But when you see a open canoe, fire up the same class V, you know the difficulty and required skill level is kicked up. ;-)))))

 

[bystander]

I'd like to see numbers and actually studies on this. It's easy to look at your little area and think it applies everywhere, but it likely doesn't.

 

[KSC]

Alright! This might be the first time I've ever made a top 10 list! Jon's answer is the most brutally honest

Interesting thoughts. To be honest, I quite like the small community and really the available technology is quite good as it stands today. I realize it's not so great for people trying to make a living in the industry though, and I'd like to see them succeed as well.

I've often wondered why WW boating has never caught on the way some other sports seem to have surged. Like climbing can be sketchy and scary and the PR is largely around the extreme endeavors, but it seems to be quite a bit more popular. I think it may have to do with indoor climbing gyms and reaching a certain threshold where you know lots of people who do something, and therefore it seems more valid as an activity and easier to find a way into it. I also think as Dave points out, that you have to put a lot of time & effort just to get out, at least for much of the year, in kayaking whereas other sports may be more readily accessible. I also think if you're an infrequent boater, you're probably going to have a bad time when you do get out.

Not sure. I've heard the argument that kayaking is just gnar gnar and too many people are scared, but not sure I buy that. With playparks abounding and such, there are lots of gentle ways to ease into the sport.

When I started the sport I was thinking, "hey this is going to be cheap, now that I have all the gear it's free from here on out." I actually think the cost of maintaining equipment is quite high if you're a frequent user. Just about everything I own seems to wear out every couple years at minimum. There's also the strange risk of simply watching your gear flush downstream and disappear forever, which generally isn't a concern if say you've dropped 4 grand on a shiny new mountain bike. I think that's part of what puts a cap on what people are willing to spend on gear and the perception of the cheap kayaker.

 

[dirtbagkayaker]

I don't expect to change your mind but I do want to respond so others aren't misled.

For background, I've been around the pro scene for 20 years. That means I've seen the glory years and the cycles of "hard" years. I was the primary sponsor of one of our best freestyle athletes and he came of age when there was actually a little, very little, money available to pros. Pros are not globe trotting and living high on the hog off of their boat sponsors. The only company that really even has a pro team these days is Jackson and they are hardly suffering for it. And calling any member of their team a "thug" just shows how little you know. LL has had one of the tightest sponsorship budgets so they are hardly struggling because of all the pros coasting on their dime. As I said before, there are multiple factors at play but when Boyce died everything changed for LL. Most of the rest of this thread is just people expounding on their particular ww industry view projected on this news from LL.

Phil, im not saying that pro boaters are free loading or that they are living fat on the hog. I am saying that "the kayaking community can not support a pro system in any way." Just not enought gross income and for the most part pro boaters have not done the best job of bringing in high dollar sponsers needed to support a pro sport. If they had, pro kayakers with be making bank. But in reality nobody cares about pro kayaking skills. Yet way too dollars are being spent on design (pro kayakers) and pro boater hand outs. Thats why a kayak that should cost $300 costs $1100. And, it only takes one pro boater to give the rest a bad name. I'm sure you know a few bad pros too!

 

[FatmanZ]

The fault lies squarely at the feet of rafters and their take-over of the rivers, mountain buzz, and everywhere in between. And the raft companies that keep pumping out cool colors, slight design tweaks, not to mention endless gotta have accessories, etc. Who needs a kayak when you can drop $750 on a rotomolded cooler? Who wants to buy kayaks that only depreciate in value when 20 year old rafts are more valuable than new ones? Who wants to weld plastic when gluing rubber is so more enjoyable?

Let's not even get started on kayak fishing (endless bling & accessories), or IKers, or tubers........

Does anyone else still miss Perception?

 

[Anchorless]

Stupid rafters.

 

[jmack]

Phil, im not saying that pro boaters are free loading or that they are living fat on the hog. I am saying that "the kayaking community can not support a pro system in any way." Just not enought gross income and for the most part pro boaters have not done the best job of bringing in high dollar sponsers needed to support a pro sport. If they had, pro kayakers with be making bank. But in reality nobody cares about pro kayaking skills. Yet way too dollars are being spent on design (pro kayakers) and pro boater hand outs. Thats why a kayak that should cost $300 costs $1100. And, it only takes one pro boater to give the rest a bad name. I'm sure you know a few bad pros too!

I don't know how we can make this any simpler. Kayak companies are spending almost nothing on "pro" sponsorships. No rational business would continue to shower money on sponsorships when they are going under.

If you could make good quality whitewater boats for $300 by simply cutting sponsorships, someone would do it. I am not sure where you are seeing $300 boats, but I would bet that they are inferior to the $1100 boats we all paddle. The fact that you think that boats should cost $300, and blame the fact that they cost more on phantom sponsorship dollars illustrates why there is not money in this business- because all of the customers are delusional hippies!

 

[smauk2]

I don't know how we can make this any simpler. Kayak companies are spending almost nothing on "pro" sponsorships. No rational business would continue to shower money on sponsorships when they are going under.

If you could make good quality whitewater boats for $300 by simply cutting sponsorships, someone would do it. I am not sure where you are seeing $300 boats, but I would bet that they are inferior to the $1100 boats we all paddle. The fact that you think that boats should cost $300, and blame the fact that they cost more on phantom sponsorship dollars illustrates why there is not money in this business- because all of the customers are delusional hippies!

Idk I'm sponsored and I get three pounds of ramen a month and good vibes.

 

[tango]

Idk I'm sponsored and I get three pounds of ramen a month and good vibes.

How much did you get from new belgium for that portage around double trouble postcard picture?


Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz

 

[d.e.]

This is text book classic economic theory. The business model for whitewater gear already has a thin profit margin and excess competition inundated the market. So small manufacturers sell to corporations who have more money for R&D and production until the business model breaks and the market consolidates meaning less choices and availability. Private companies who offer quality gear and customer service like Jackson will weather the storm because they aren't beholden ro a bunch of stockholders and they can operate leaner. It probably didn't help LL that they spent big on a new facility when the market was starting to tank. They'll be back in some sort way in the future. I think Steve Jordan is a pretty sharp business guy. It's also interesting that Dagger has revamped the Nomad right when the competition is falling off. Timing can be everything. Makes trying to figure out which new boat to buy easier.....