[bystander]

I saw as Smauk got his shit with hard work and dedication was Fred is just paid.

He said that he didn't get much from his kayak deals, but marketed himself to Toyota and other big corporations to make his money. It's not simply a matter of hard physical work, but him being smart and finding a way to make a successful life.

In no way did he make it sound as if he put LL out of business either. Quite the opposite.

 

[dirtbagkayaker]

I don't know how we can make this any simpler. Kayak companies are spending almost nothing on "pro" sponsorships. No rational business would continue to shower money on sponsorships when they are going under.

If you could make good quality whitewater boats for $300 by simply cutting sponsorships, someone would do it. I am not sure where you are seeing $300 boats, but I would bet that they are inferior to the $1100 boats we all paddle. The fact that you think that boats should cost $300, and blame the fact that they cost more on phantom sponsorship dollars illustrates why there is not money in this business- because all of the customers are delusional hippies!

I get that LL aint lining the pockets of anyone. You guys are completely blindly defending your point. If there was no pro kayaking then there would be no need for LL, WS, dagger to spend waayy too much money on design and research for kayaks that pro boat hype out. Only to throw that design under the bus as soon as the next design comes along even if the new boat sucks. (remember the LL vission or bigwheel?). This design and research is pushed by the pro boating community way harder that the average joe. This continued high cost of competitive kayaking makes it very hard to maintain a company. The kayaking world as a whole is not big enough to divide all the high end research and design among the few people who buy new boats in any give year.

Again the majority of the cost of innovation has been forced on the average boater. We don't need the newest. Thats way we buy $400 used boats. We stopped believing the hype when the new boat we bought didn't magically make us heros. Costco can sell a kayak with twice the plastic and the same roto-molding process for $350. I'll bet pelican didn't spend much on research.

Research is the hidden cost driven by the pro boating community and the average boater is not willing to foot the bill any more so the manufacture will fall.

LL is the classic example of a company meeting the needs of the pro community before the needs of the customer and trying to pass the cost the average joe.

 

[bystander]

I get that LL aint lining the pockets of anyone. You guys are completely blindly defending your point. If there was no pro kayaking then there would be no need for LL, WS, dagger to spend waayy too much money on design and research for kayaks that pro boat hype out. Only to throw that design under the bus as soon as the next design comes along even if the new boat sucks. (remember the LL vission or bigwheel?). This design and research is pushed by the pro boating community way harder that the average joe. This continued high cost of competitive kayaking makes it very hard to maintain a company. The kayaking world as a whole is not big enough to divide all the high end research and design among the few people who buy new boats in any give year.

Again the majority of the cost of innovation has been forced on the average boater. We don't need the newest. Thats way we buy $400 used boats. We stopped believing the hype when the new boat we bought didn't magically make us heros. Costco can sell a kayak with twice the plastic and the same roto-molding process for $350. I'll bet pelican didn't spend much on research.

Research is the hidden cost driven by the pro boating community and the average boater is not willing to foot the bill any more so the manufacture will fall.

I'm not going to pretend to understand everything that these companies go through to be successful, but every company needs marketing to sell boats. Sponsored boaters are a marketing tool. Without them, it is harder for them to sell boats. It's also very difficult to get people to buy new boats without new models. If they just pumped out the same old boats, year after year, we'd still buy used boats, as the new ones are the same as the used one on Craigslist.

 

[dirtbagkayaker]

I'm not going to pretend to understand everything that these companies go through to be successful, but every company needs marketing to sell boats. Sponsored boaters are a marketing tool. Without them, it is harder for them to sell boats. It's also very difficult to get people to buy new boats without new models. If they just pumped out the same old boats, year after year, we'd still buy used boats, as the new ones are the same as the used one on Craigslist.

You just changed the argument from the high cost of research pushed by pro boaters to marketing. Those a two completely different components business.

Pro boaters have made whitewater kayaking a difficult venture with the demand for newer high end boats that the average boater wont buy and does not want.

 

[soggy_tortillas]

LL is the classic example of a company meeting the needs of the pro community before the needs of the customer and trying to pass the cost the average joe.

But what about their #automaticforthepeople campaign?

 

[dirtbagkayaker]

But what about their #automaticforthepeople campaign?

(-: Just words. Just words on a piece of paper. Kinda like how the govy says its for the people and then supports corporate right over people.

Smoke and mirrors, Soggy.

 

[bystander]

You just changed the argument from the high cost of research pushed by pro boaters to marketing. Those a two completely different components business.

Pro boaters have made whitewater kayaking a difficult venture with the demand for newer high end boats that the average boater wont buy and does not want.

No, I did not such thing. I never talked about pro boaters pushing research at all. Pro boaters, or at least sponsored boaters, are a marketing component. Research is to get new models out to entice people to actually replace existing gear.

Pro boaters are not the ones demanding new boats. They simply help market them. It's the boat makers who push new models so that we boaters have a reason to buy something new.

 

[bluesky]

I think any claim that whitewater R&D is being done simply so a handful of pros can have the sickest new ride every year doesn't bear up to scrutiny. Like others have said, elite level boaters get free gear and sometimes money too in order to show off the logos on that gear to the world. The business rationale is the exact same as it is for NASCAR, the NFL, WNBA 😛, etc. Most people, including myself, would rather watch someone scary good paddle scary hard gnar than a smiling family cruise Deckers.

So, if you're a business you sponsor or hire a young hotshot to get people watching, people associate that person with your gear, and they're more likely to buy your gear next time they're in the shopping mood. And who gets as excited to buy a 'new' 2005 Outback (you know who you are) when you can get the 2015? Same applies to boating. New boats get people excited. Just look at the fervor over the Braaap. There is an economic balance that must be maintained between R&D and sales, of course, but they're connected at the hip.

This is pretty basic stuff, and any successful business understands that.


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