last time I checked, transportation for services is not "being paid", it's indentured servitude. The restaurant analogy is lame and doesn't apply at all--if this guy had just advertised for an open spot on a grand trip with no preconditions, splitting expenses and chores evenly, like everybody else does, then, none of this thread-shitstorm would have ever happened

 

Maybe a good deal for broke folks

As much as I dislike the tone of Peter's post and offer, I am trying to imagine myself as a broke college student/river bum/ski bum that could never afford the $800-$1000 or whatever for even a private trip, am not a boatwoman, and don't know anyone to get me on a trip. For that person, this type of an offer might be made in heaven. There is definite risk they'd be treated as a 2nd class citizen (but most passengers should be ready to relief-row) and that the group is really lame.

I agree with Rich P, on my recent trip I put together the entire menu (LOTS of work with multiple food issues). 4-5 people did all the shopping and packing. Then most people showed up and most never thanked anyone for the work put into putting it all together, let alone realize how huge of a task that is.

With the cost sharing rule seeming intended to prevent the hiring of guides, the park probably doesn't care about a group covering the cost of a person who will do a huge amount of work. As long as they don't walk away with money in their pocket for it, it probably meets the spirit of the reg. I think there are probably enough people "guiding" private trips for profit that a free trip for someone in exchange for cooking isn't even on their radar.

 

As much as I dislike the tone of Peter's post and offer, I am trying to imagine myself as a broke college student/river bum/ski bum that could never afford the $800-$1000 or whatever for even a private trip, am not a boat woman, and don't know anyone to get me on a trip. For that person, this type of an offer might be made in heaven. There is definite risk they'd be treated as a 2nd class citizen (but most passengers should be ready to relief-row) and that the group is really lame.

I agree with Rich P, on my recent trip I put together the entire menu (LOTS of work with multiple food issues). 4-5 people did all the shopping and packing. Then most people showed up and most never thanked anyone for the work put into putting it all together, let alone realize how huge of a task that is.

With the cost sharing rule seeming intended to prevent the hiring of guides, the park probably doesn't care about a group covering the cost of a person who will do a huge amount of work. As long as they don't walk away with money in their pocket for it, it probably meets the spirit of the reg. I think there are probably enough people "guiding" private trips for profit that a free trip for someone in exchange for cooking isn't even on their radar.

I agree with you on all points.

Not defending the origins of the policy -- just trying to help people understand how it applies to ordinary boaters so they can avoid problems.

Seriously Rich........I do appreciate you thoughtful and informative posts. I always learn something new from your words of wisdom.
You have some interesting comments on park approved concessionaire's. Reading between the lines..............it sounds like you have to pay them to be approved and/or make money inside their park. Props. to Karen and her business.

 

Hi Caverdan,

Thanks for those kind words.

I don't really know much about the concessions side of things, even though I worked a couple of commercial trips as a swamper long ago in my checkered past. But I don't think this is a huge money-maker for the Park, compared to the rest of its budget.

The Park is required by law to regulate commercial services that are deemed necessary to ensure public access. As part of that regulatory scheme, they may levy fees on the concessionaires they approve. See Vol 65, #74 at Grand Canyon National Park - Concessions - NPS Regulations which says the Park may set a

***

"...franchise fee or other monetary consideration as determined by the Director upon consideration of the probable value to the concessioner of the privileges granted by the contract involved. This probable value will be based upon a reasonable opportunity for net profit in relation to capital invested and the obligations of the contract. Consideration of revenue to the United States shall be subordinate to the objectives of protecting and preserving park areas and of providing necessary and appropriate visitor services at reasonable rates."

***

The GC river concessions folks describe it this way in their material:

***

"The National Park Service Concessions Management Improvement Act of 1998, together with the National Park Service’s regulations promulgated thereunder, governs the provision of commercial visitor services, called concessions, in the national parks. This law replaced the original National Park System Concessions Policy Act of 1965.

The 1998 Act, like the 1965 Act before it, states that, as a matter of policy, concessions are to be limited to those that are "necessary and appropriate for public use and enjoyment" and are "consistent to the highest practicable degree with the preservation and conservation of the resources and values" of the park. Among other provisions, the new law governs NPS contracting for concession services in the parks, payments from concessioners to the NPS in return for the privilege to do business within a unit of the National Park System, and the transfer of concessions contracts or permits."

***

All of which gets us back to whether paying a cook/choreperson/spare rower is a commercial activity or not -- and if so, whether the Park has an interest in regulating such activity.

More grist for the mill.

Have a good one.

Rich Phillips

 

Wow! What a forum--I logged in to post that the position is filled and was stunned to see 10 pages of posts filled with mostly hatred and name-calling.

One poster asked what I think of all this? I doubt most other posters really want to know, as the tone of their comments are filled with the certitude of their righteousness and the evil nature myself and the rest of the participants. I have no desire to justify myself or engage anyone else. Each of us creates our own realities. I'm very happy living in my creation, so blessings to each and every one on what you are creating with your words and deeds.

And FYI--a dozen people asked to enjoy this opportunity. Most love to cook, and all have personal reasons why having their expenses paid works for them.

I know you'll have fun with this post as well. Enjoy yourselves, I won't be logging in again.

 

I do not hate you peterd. I do not understand you. Lazy enlightened buddha wannabe.

I still want to know about the bacon??

That was one of my first questions and reveals much about your character. While I do not espouse pork for every breakfast, it has to be considered at least several times on a trip of this nature.

What are you going to make a grease bomb with some left over crisco?

Just not the same.

( He walks away shaking his head at the calamity of it all, and all the things that could have been said, that have been avoided by turning the other cheek. )

 

Hi Peter,

You're still online as I write this, so maybe you'll see it before you tune out permanently.

Yes, the Buzz is full of wild and crazy content. I'm betting most of my posts are way too sedate for a lot of the crowd that hangs here - the portion of readership who long for the banter and camaraderie and cheap harassment.

But I think there were constructive responses directed at helping you avoid problems. Please consider them, at least.

To recap, forgetting the peripheral chatter. If your logon info is true, you are easily identifiable to the Park (which monitors these lists). You've proposed doing something that is likely against Park rules. You've said in your last post that you've enlisted someone under this questionable arrangement. If you go ahead with it, be prepared for whatever happens.

I'm not trying to impose anything on you. That's no more and no less than one river guy trying to do something that he thinks will help another river guy.

Have a good one, and I truly hope you enjoy the Canyon.

Rich Phillips

 

Hi Rich,

Thanks for your heads up.

I doubt I'm running afoul of park regulations. They are pretty clear that no one can "profit" from a private trip. No one is. We're not paying our cook anything. We're paying their share of the expenses to the outfitter. No one leaves the trip a penny richer then before they launched.

Basically we're deciding trading time for money. I know of GC trips that have done this, where people pay a lessor share (or nothing at all) in exchange for doing more work.

And thanks for your decency. It's worth a lot more than the advice.

Stay Blessed,

Peter D.

And PS--This forum has confirmed my understanding that life is self-selecting. If my heart is open and kind, I'm going to be surrounded by open-hearted and kind people. And if not, then not. All the replies I received were characterized by enthusiasm and joy, while all the negativity was confined to these pages. Thank you God for life in all it's diversity! And Thanks for the ability to choose what I'm experiencing--a river lesson I first learned reading Hesse's book, Siddartha.

 

Peterd, you mentioned "the outfitter." Is this a private permit? If it is you are violating NPS regulations for the Grand Canyon. The regs state that all participants must share in costs equally.

 

Hi Folks,

I thought I was done with this -- as interesting as it has been -- and then I realized I have never posted the actual regulations that we're talking about. Can't believe I didn't do that right away....

Grand Canyon National Park - 12 to 25 Day Noncommercial River Trips: Lees Ferry to Diamond Creek (U.S. National Park Service)

which says, "All noncommercial trip expenses must be shared among all participants on a full cost sharing basis."

Also:

http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/upload/Noncommercial_River_Trip_Regulations.pdf

which each permit holder should receive, and says, in part on page 2:

"A. Cost Sharing and Participatory Nature - All noncommercial river trips must be participatory in nature. Trip preparation, costs, and conduct of the trip must be shared by all members of the group. This includes logistics, food purchase, equipment assembly, transportation, vehicle shuttle, food preparation, and sanitation. Failure to comply will cause cancellation of the permit and may jeopardize any future applications by the trip leader and/or other trip members.

B. No Paid Participation - Collecting a fee (monetary compensation), payable to an individual, group, or organization for conducting, leading, or guiding a noncommercial river trip is not allowed. The trip leader should delegate responsibility (financial and otherwise) for various aspects of trip preparation and conduct. Trips may be considered noncommercial even though a member of the trip, within their normal scope of employment, receives a salary from an educational institution or non-profit organization to participate in the trip. This salary may not come directly through fees contributed by members of the party. No person may be hired or paid to participate in a trip under the noncommercial permit system."

These sections (and the last sentence is particularly ominous, I'd say) are where the Park would have the biggest hammer it decided to pursue this.

I note as well that "profit" is not the distinguishing feature in their eyes. It's whether the Park concludes (should the matter come to their attention -- which the original public post almost surely accomplished) that both the cost and duties were not equally shared in some rational way.

I think Peter's accepting the information in the spirit in which it's offered, and I hope he has a great trip.

Rich Phillips
Not Speaking for the Park
Not an Attorney
Just Another Guy with a Raft or Two

 

I still say that:
1) He should man up and cook his own food and wash his own dishes
2) Who cares if toys promote alcohol use? Toys are meant for fun and alcohol is obviously fun.

 

So according to that regulation, can I still bring a hooker and some cocaine?

 

Yes, but they need to be kept in a secure, water-tight container.

 

Anybody have time to edit this to a printable format!?

 

I did just finish finals for school, but that extra time will be taken up by my several vices.

 

Buddhist teachings don't explicitly forbid slavery, but the eightfold path says that engaging in trade in living beings is not a right form of livelihood. This appears to ban Buddhists from engaging in the slave trade.

...a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in living beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.

Eightfold path

10 bucks he has a turquoise earring in one ear. maybe a dangle.

​

 

Don't you mean peace love and light won't be full of YOU?

 

LOL. On advice of counsel, I can neither confirm nor deny the accuracy of your post.

Maybe...

 

I would encourage everyone who PM'd PETERD about the trip to spend a little time on his RIDICULOUS website. For just $3,000-5,000 PETERD will come speak to your organization about how several toys and video games might possibly promote alcohol use to children. All you have to do is stretch your imagination to its limits and it becomes obvious that most any toy is a scheme to make kids drink! For example, the Bratz Limosine toy has a smoothie bar in it, which is obviously secret code to make kids get wasted!

Too funny Peturd.

 

Obviously this ploy of alcoholic toys has been going on for a while. My favorite toys were Strawberry Shortcake dolls, no wonder I'm addicted to sugar and froo-froo girl drinks as an adult.

Maybe Peturd will take the stand for me when I sue them for my adult drinking/sugar binge problems...

 

Peturd has an annoyingly smug look for such an "enlightened" person...

http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=531&stc=1&d=1212698318

 

Hi,

I know most of it is intended in a good-natured way, and I learn a lot here. But wow, sometimes you gotta have a thick skin to stay alive on this board.

A current total of 114 posts and almost 12,000 views -- started by an apparently innocent question from a newbie who may not understand the kind of irreverent fun that goes on here.

Thanks oh so sincerely for treating me gently over the years....

Richp

"If there was real justice in the world, would anybody escape being horsewhipped?" - Mark Twain

 

Rich- sometimes I don't know how you tolerate this board. Maybe you're not just an "Old Geezer and All-Round Nice Guy" (source, GCPBA board)???

After my recent GC trip, I am more inclined to find one your speed next time around! But, certain people are not who they seem on these forums and what the heck is a nice older guy lurking and posting here?

Wait, what the hell am I doing here? Oh well, all in fun

Best boating to ya.

 

The peterd picture. Just kindles the urge to cyberbully doesn't it! Gawd, how I wish Max was still around.

 

Hi Laura,

Someone else would have to vouch for the "all round nice guy" claim, but Geezer fits 100%.

I think the key to this board is to not take all of it seriously. Sure, a lot of the friskier stuff is not my style, but it's part of the real boating world that I enjoy. More importantly for me, there are regular nuggets of good information coupled with sort of entertaining self-submitted personality profiles -- and the occasional hard knock. If you keep your eyes, ears, and mind open, that seems to be the way life presents itself in other arenas as well, isn't it?

This is an unconventional little community, and newbies may not pick up on that right away. But there's a sort of an enjoyable, cheap harassment kind of camaraderie here that can be fun, on top of the educational component.

The other half of the equation is to not take yourself too seriously. I used to have a signature tag that said, "From a guy who knows a little bit about a lot, and not much about anything." I don't pretend for a moment to have a corner on all the wisdom of the Western world, and found long ago I can learn stuff in the most unlikely places.

But having said all that, if you're ever looking to boat with the kind of boring fellow described over there on the GCPBA list, be sure to think of me.

Have a good one.

Rich Phillips