Bent for the flats, straight for the white. For 30 years, I've seen a lot of newbies (which we've all been) trying to use a bent shaft backwards. Then they say it doesn't work. my preference for a real flatwater touring (racing) canoe is a short bent shaft with a short hard chop. For a tripping canoe, I'll occasionally switch to a light, slender, long, ash flipper. It was dubbed my "6-foot moose-killer" by the old friend George, now gone, who made it. Every stroke, I miss those campfires under the borealis. But for whitewater, I like a straight shaft, medium wide blade, light weight with a reinforced tip. Yeah, that's all Old School. I reckon the natives were paddling canoes and kayaks long before I came on the scene, and I'm not likely to improve a great deal on their recipes. Until Ole' Evinrude came off with his 3-bladed paddle. ~~~__/)_~~~

 

I reckon the natives were paddling canoes and kayaks long before I came on the scene, and I'm not likely to improve a great deal on their recipes.

I love a Greenland-style paddle in a sea kayak.

In whitewater, I like my old AT bent shaft, but I'd agree with the other posters who have said that you get used to what you're using.

 

villagelightsmith is talking about canoes, and I kind of agree, but I don't have a boat that works well with a bent shaft. Soon perhaps. When I find a place to keep it, a Prism might be a fun addition. For WW I use a Bandit laid up in carbon fiber. It's so light that if I had another one along side it, they would float off into the air....


MCSkit is talking about kayak paddles. I've borrowed bent shaft paddles to try them out. They are fine, but have limitations. If you have wrist or elbow issues (tendonitis), bent shafts can help mitigate that. But you are basically limited to ONE grip position. Anecdotally, they seem to break more often. As you mentioned, they are more expensive. I like a fairly short straight shaft paddle without giant blades.



Surely someone can loan you a straight shaft paddle in the length you think you need to try out before you buy one. That's what I would do. Take a while with it because it will feel really different.


I had some fun with hand paddles for a while. I remember pulling them out and letting a friend carry my paddle along with hers while I tried them. When I got that stick back in my hand, it felt really odd. Maybe that's what you need - hand paddles. Leave the stick at home. Sucks in the flats, though....

 

For flat water I love my Werner Kalliste Carbon bent shaft two piece. My preferred blade angle is 15 degrees. With stronger headwinds I set the angle to 30 sometimes.

A couple of months ago I put forth the question on MB of whether other people have noticed the benefits of a straight, small diameter shaft for whitewater. I'd years ago determined that I preferred straight, shorter, small diameter shaft, smaller blade for squirt boating and my more difficult boating(Class v). RPM's seemed to make up for any loss of single stroke power. I didn't think about it much. It was just the way it was.

Anyway, the last couple of summers my significant other and I swapped out an old small diameter shaft while WW kayaking, mostly mileage but easy whitewater(She also has a bent shaft Kalliste for sea kayaking).

We could be wrong but the bent shaft seems mostly for comfort and not performance and that we get the same benefit with the small diameter shaft for ww since our hands are not forced to twist/torqued as much to conform to the large diameter straight shaft.

I didn't get much response to my MB query but based on our experience I recommend checking out a small diameter shaft. Best of all worlds. You can grasp tightly if not better when you need to, actually feels more nimble/lighter and still achieve substantially reduced strain and fatigue.

Full disclosure, I'm in the process of ordering Werner small diameter straight shaft Stikines for me and my SO for our Katana's intended mostly for self-support mellower multi-day WW trips. (Hey man, we're on social security.)

 

You will get used to and like whatever paddle you purchase. I paddled with a straight shaft and liked it. Now I paddle with a 30 degree bent shaft Werner Stakine and like it. My four piece backup is a straight shaft Powerhouse.

The bent shaft took some time getting used to. In particular, I found that I had a difficult time getting my paddle in proper position to roll - at least moe so than with a straight shaft.

What I like most about the bent shaft is the ease at which I can go from a stern draw hold stroke to a forward stroke without lifting the paddle blade out of the water.

 

Just getting back from a trip and was feeling like my bent shaft Powerhouse is out of date. General consensus from our guides was that bent shafts are helpful if you have tendonitis problems (I would agree based on past experience).

Sounds like the small diameter straight shaft is most en vogue now.

You should buy all of them from Backcountry.com, take them out for a demo in some manky gnar, send them back, and then buy the one you like when they put it on GearTrade.com.

 

Best advise yet! Bent shafts are good for tendonitis. Small shafts are good for small hands. Screw Backcountry!

 

Howdy Dunkins,

I'm very interested in knowing if someone you've interacted with lately voiced the opinion that smaller diameter kayak shafts relative to "standard" diameter have merit? I believe you are saying that("most en vogue now").

I wonder if the original standard diameter for a shaft was based on stock material that was available and the material that was best suited to the task at that time, i.e. would not brake and yet be suitably light and hold able.

Do materials like carbon fiber redefine suitable strength versus diameter and lightness?

Obviously there is a diameter of "dimensioningly" return, pardon an attempt at a pun "diminishing" return. When does a shaft become small/difficult to hold/control versus optimal performance/pleasure. Hummm, what is the diameter of a average male........ never mind that thought. I never suggested it.

This is a suitable topic for a master's degree thesis in various fields of engineering, ergonomics, etc . I could easily write this up and propose it to thesis advisers. It is up to the student to define a suitable test bed and standardized measures. I've got more thoughts here but bring me the student. Anyway, just thinking about it.

 

I'm in Idaho and paddle with a lot of avid paddlers. Werner seems to be the paddle of choice around here.

I grew up using straight shafts, and over a decade ago started using bent shafts, then about four years ago went back to a straight shaft.

My opinion, and something I've heard from several of my friends, is that we are getting more power out of a straight shaft. Many of the locals have switched back to straight shafts in recent years and prefer them to bents.

I love Werner paddles but the bend is not something you can customize. And I really enjoyed using their 194cm bent shaft paddles, but as a large adult male, that paddle length is short and something I will only use now for playboating. I don't like the way the longer lengths feel in a bent shaft.

Also, I agree that the small shafts are trending. I haven't heard anybody that says they really don't like them and even with my big paws, it feels awesome! I feel like in a severe beatdown situation, you're more likely to keep your grip on a small shaft versus a normal shaft.

Just some of my thoughts.

 

I think you are all having two different conversations. MCSkid, are you asking about a kayak paddle with curved grips, but a blade that leaves the shaft without an angle? Or are you asking about an oopen boat canoe paddle with an angle of between 7.5 and 15 degrees between the shaft and the plane of the blade?

You mentioned Jackson, they paddle kayaks, not canoes. Canoe paddles are generally Straight for the white and Bent for the flat. Down river racers might be exceptions.

You might want to clarify.

 

Everything he talked about in the original post was about kayaking including the people and the model of paddle he is looking at...so I think the answer to your query is pretty obvious.

I guess not for a few people though based on a couple of responses.

 

I don't have a good reason why, but I greatly prefer a straight shaft. A 197 cm, 15 degree offset Werner Powerhouse seems to be the standard for the majority of whitewater paddlers in Colorado.

 

There wasn't any science behind it, but the guys I talked to thought the small diameter paddles gave them better grip with less fatigue.

Lmyers, I would argue that 30 degree offset is more popular. Backcountry.com doesn't sell a Powerhouse with 15 degree offset, so where would we even go to buy one?

 

Lol... I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm using a 15 degree feather and it seems like the majority of the stock at CKS is the same as mine.

 

Pretty much all shops carry 30 degree as standard. Your local Werner dealer (or us here at 4CRS) can special order any offset and configuration you'd like within a 2-3 week turnaround.

As to bent vs straight, here's my take:

Like most, I started with a straight shaft, then went to bent shaft. After years of paddling a bent shaft and several shoulder dislocations, I went back to a straight shaft and haven't looked back.

IMO, bent shafts do more harm than good. Yes for people with bad wrists or elbows, they can alleviate some pain, but so can a proper grip on a straight shaft. I think that bent shafts encourage over-gripping of the shaft due to the ergonomics of the bend. This can lead to fatigue and injury (like in my case. Had I not been over gripping, I probably wouldn't have had a dislocation).

The bend also limits the location of your hand placement on the shaft and discourage choking up on the shaft, which can help with keeping your shoulders down and tight. Bent shafts also cost more, are generally weaker (thats why they use carbon in the bent shaft now) and are stiffer due to the use of said carbon. I enjoy the linear feel of the straight shaft and feel like I have better blade placement with a straight shaft over a bent.

Not only did I go to a straight shaft, but I opted for the small diameter shaft even though I have big hands. I don't think it makes a lot of difference in terms of grip and hand warmth, but what it does do is flex quite a bit more than a standard diameter, which is easier on my crappy shoulders.

If I had it my way, I would only stock straight shafts, but I'd say we still sell 50/50 bent vs straight.

 

been paddling a bent shaft werner for at least 10 yrs and just switched back to a straight shaft and think I prefer the straight shaft now.

 

You seem to me to be an inherently selfish person. Have you ever considered what your partner prefers? Personally I have received generally positive feedback from using a straight shaft, however a well placed and properly applied bend here or there can certainly spice up the relationship.
If your in CO, you're probably not boating much for a while, so we certainly have time before you need to make a decision to sidetrack this thread by picking off the low-hanging fruit with juvenile comments.

 

Bent or straight!!!???
Are you kidding me, what are you guys going to think about next to get your flat ass off the couch or desk top to go paddle!!
Are you talking about your guide paddle for your half day raft trip down the milk run to call your self a guide?!
just stick to the front range and drive around with your kayak on the roof of your Subaru crosstrek with just removed Cali plates and call your self a local because you bought a Yeti bike from a CO bike shop.
or just dust off the old stuff and go paddle?
its winter maybe? you are probably buying a new set to touring gear to be the ultra light geek that we all want to be

 

Chill the F*** out, just cause you shot an Elk doesn't make you cool.

 

Thanks all. This brings up 30 vs 45(vs 15).

I can set my sea kayak paddle to increments of 15 degrees. I find myself usually dialing in again and again 15 degrees. I never go to 0 or go to 45. For 45 it is just way too much rolling over the wrist action on every stroke for me (sea kayaking). Zero degrees just feels wrong. I have to under twist my wrist.(Maybe that is just the bent shaft.) Sometimes I dial 30 when going into a strong wind.

Werner suggests 45 for WW and 30 for play. Is 45 only traditional and because of wind considerations??????? I just don't see the advantage of the rolling over of the wrist for a 45 degree offset except for "reduced wind resistance" during advancing the blade on the off-stroke side.

Does anyone have feedback from a slalom or downriver racing kayak perspective?

 

One of the ideas behind a bigger offset is that it encourages / forces you into using more torso rotation, thus giving you more power. However, most people aren't thinking about proper torso rotation in the middle of a Class V, so high offset paddles aren't for everyone.

 

Interesting.

Is the torso rotation the result of a need to accommodate a 45 degree offset of the blade which was standard then??????

Haven't thought about it till now but having trophied slalom racing in the latest 70's is torso rotation strictly to accommodate a 45 offset of the blade which was standard (then).............. That is, are you just winding up your abdomen to compromise for the twist of the wrist.

Interesting but probably not. That power from your mid-section can not be replaced by blade angle considerations.

What is the preferred blade angle for racers? Love to know what that is?

 

Most slalom paddlers I've ordered paddles for prefer a 45 or 60 degree, but some go all the way up to 90. More torso rotation = more power because you're using more of your core.

 

As much as I find this video annoying, EJ nailed the answers to the various paddle questions in this video. As far as I'm concerned those are the answers, discussion over. Someone should edit it down to the 2 minutes worth of salient points and I'd be less annoyed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFrqjhntvMw

 

As much as I find this video annoying, EJ nailed the answers to the various paddle questions in this video. As far as I'm concerned those are the answers, discussion over. Someone should edit it down to the 2 minutes worth of salient points and I'd be less annoyed.]

Thanks!!

Long but so worth the watch. I've done the re-grip on the shaft to get the longer blade stroke for rolling. That was the first time someone talked me though it like that!

 

EJ's video is brilliant!! How to dial in to perfection!

I have a few point of perfection to improve his perspective.

EJ does not mention small diameter shafts. It performs much of the same purposes as a bent shaft.

EJ mentions electrical tape. Bogus BS. Never subject you most prized shaft to damage. Perhaps EJ and his sponsored young ones can deal with damaged shafts protected by E-tape but fuck that. Protect a $3 to $5 hundred dollar investment. In transit, a quality blade should never be out of padded storage.

If you want to truly calibrate your shaft to your grip use wax and not tape. It once was Sex Wax for surf boarding for kayak paddles. That did not work for kayaking. Use in Colorado Extra Blue nordic wax, thickly. You will in no time dial in your finger nail prints to a precise location on your shaft, believe it or not. Your mind will know you paddle angle precisely because your impression of you fingers(prints) is in you paddle. Doubt me. Try spending your pleasure squirt boating the numbers on the Ark when you really want to know at any angle of disorientation how to recover and do your next move of pure pleasure. Ya hoo. Or even more importantly, how to pull your ass out of a very previous pure pleasure.

More thoughts later. Thank you EJ for your thought out presentation.

 

@GeoRon Most racers prefer 60-90 degree offsets because it’s more ergonomic with rotation. Rotation helps to protect the shoulders, get more power from strokes, and to set up better for impromptu maneuvers.
The rotator cuff wears out quickly with the typical “boxing nun” or “kayaking T-Rex” movement that most kayakers use. Ask any long-time recreational boater how their shoulders feel and it’s readily apparent.
By using rotation instead of arms, you can reduce the strain on your shoulders and protect yourself better from dislocation. You also end up in a better position to make effective turning strokes, like a Duffek or pry, using core muscle groups than you would with a static core.

 

Small shafts are probably a sensitive topic in the Jackson family.

I forgot about the tape thing - I've never tried it because wax has always worked well for me.

I don't really understand the mechanics behind why a small shaft would be better, but am curious about it - I know people who prefer them.

 

I don't really understand the mechanics behind why a small shaft would be better, but am curious about it - I know people who prefer them.

I like the Werner small dia when I'm wearing gloves.

 

This subject reminds me of the 26/27.5/29" disagreements in mountain bike wheel size from ~10 years ago.

The answer to that question is sort of like the answer to straight vs. bent:

"Pick one, and be a dick about it...".

And on *that* note, remember that the toolboxes at the Hammer Factor would have us all paddling 60* feather on class V and attempting to indoctrinate us into believing that our, um, shafts are as small as theirs if we don't.