[shappattack]

i too would like to here from the importers on their Glue R&D

 

[Outback]

I have no specs on raft glue, but I'm told it was changed a few years ago and rafts are lasting much longer now. How long... I don't know, but my friend has a glued raft that's over 10-years old and it's still going strong, and he use's it normally three times a week.

I simply bought a Saturn on price alone... many guys can't afford a raft over $3500, but can finally scrape up $1100-$1300.

It's not all about GLUE...

 

[northplattesaturn]

Saturn Owner

I have owned my 14' Saturn for 2 seasons and haven't had any problems. I have used it in high water and low and it maneuvers well and has held up like a champ. Although I haven't used mine on any major water, I do have friends who have and they love it. One friend spent 21 days on the Colorado with his 14', through the Grand Canyon, and never had a problem. I am not an expert on rafts, but I do know that the price was right and the raft has already paid itself off and then some.
I bought mine from Cody in Idaho and those guys personally made sure I was getting what I wanted and I wasn't disappointed. Thanks Saturn!

 

[swiftwater15]

I have no specs on raft glue, but I'm told it was changed a few years ago and rafts are lasting much longer now. How long... I don't know, but my friend has a glued raft that's over 10-years old and it's still going strong, and he use's it normally three times a week.

I simply bought a Saturn on price alone... many guys can't afford a raft over $3500, but can finally scrape up $1100-$1300.

It's not all about GLUE...

What brand is his glued boat?

 

[SaturnRafts]

Just Trying to Provide CUSTOMER Input

Come on Swift.... You ASKED for people who actually OWN our rafts to provide input. Look at my email, I simply asked our CUSTOMERS to provide input, didn't say it had to be positive. If you've been on this site for long you realize that our boats get distroyed here (that comment alone just put a smile on alot of people's faces).

Of all the people to bash us, you're the one that wanted the responses? What's your agenda? How in the hell did we annoy you by asking our customers to login and respond to your question?

This BS about us providing fake posts is just that. We already explained the 1 instance and you don't have to believe it but we are just trying to put a great product on the water for a great price.

 

[SaturnRafts]

To Answer Swifts Original Question #2

I understand that the glued-pvc manufacturers use a different glue than the old Maravias.[/quote]

I don't personally know what type of glue was originally used in the old Maravia's. I know that in the last decade there has been over 10,000 Saturn boats/rafts put on the water here in the U.S. and you certainly haven't read anything about seams coming apart. This year alone over 2,000 boats/rafts will be put on the water here in the US.

Let me clarify and say that about 1,800 of the Saturn products sold this year will be dinghy style boats. I'm not trying to imply that we're putting thousands of whitewater rafts on the water. But, the dinghies take on a whole nother eliment with saltwater use.

It's a good question and one I'll try to provide more answers to. I have a bunch of glue specs but don't know how it compares with what was used in the past.

 

[SaturnRafts]

Point of clarification...Canyon Rafts aren't the same as Saturn Rafts

Yes, we also used to sell Canyon Rafts at saturnrafts.com but they are produced by a seperate manufacturer who uses similar materials and construction techniques. They aren't the same.

We still sell the Canyon Rafts under a different website at canyonraft.net but since we're sold out for this season we took down the site. Not trying to plug here, just wanted to be clear.

Still a great raft for the price and people love the technical specs. We changed our website entirely to avoid the Canyon/Saturn confusion because you guys said it was confusing.

 

[carmine34]

Welding vs. Gluing

Dude, have you ever worked on a boat? Do some research, there is a lot of factors involved in welding PVC material together just as there are with Gluing. Check out Jack's Plastics, that guy probably knows more about boat seaming on the tip of his pincky than you do. I've glued seams and have repaired PVC boats but have never welded because I can't really afford the equipment but I did check out the Maravia operation in Idaho and they can probably tell you all the factors involved in welding too, they actually have the machines. Oh ya and I have came across so so weld jobs that I was able to pull apart the seam without even damaging the material. It's all about the quality of work, Weld or Glue! I not arguing that gluing is better than welding. Welding has the edge over gluing but there is not as big of a difference as you think. They both have to be done right.

WTF where did you get this idea? If welding is done wrong it looks like hell but is stuck like mother f-er.

If these are real folks, the info should stay here, on this Lhowemt is a Nazi, this is America, we all have the right to an opinion (even you lhowemt), if you don't like it don't read it.

 

[shappattack]

I have only worked on my boats (both glued and welded) for 20 years. I have never had a problem with my 2 welded PVC boats leaking air (other than for punctures), but have had nearly continous seam problems with three glued ones.

On this issue, The Saturn Dude must prevail, his customers have the right to post about their boats, no matter if he asked them to or not, unless he is giving some incentive or they are family/part of the business, which I doubt, the opinions of cutomers are not commercial speak.

 

[lhowemt]

If these are real folks, the info should stay here, on this Lhowemt is a Nazi, this is America, we all have the right to an opinion (even you lhowemt), if you don't like it don't read it.

Bite me Shapp. You are eating your own tail, I am a Nazi because I have an opinion that you don't like, but yet we all have the right to an opinion?

 

[shappattack]

Thank you for your opnion, and I appreciat the offer but I am happily married. Please let others continue to express theirs, without calling for mods to silence them.

 

[carmine34]

Glued/Welded Boats and Saturn

Well you have me beat by about 15 years, maybe you were lucky enough to only work on quality boats all those years?

Anyways, I don't blame people for getting mad about glued import boats. If you work for Maravia or Aire you should be pissed that your livelyhood is being theatened by import boats. I can't stop others from buying them and I can't afford a $4000 boat so I bought one too just because I want to go boating without having to rely on others for equipment. If it last 5 years great, than maybe by that time I can afford an Avon or perhaps an improved more competitive US boat? Right now in my opinion, there's Avon and all the rest are a big step down.

Carmage

I have only worked on my boats (both glued and welded) for 20 years. I have never had a problem with my 2 welded PVC boats leaking air (other than for punctures), but have had nearly continous seam problems with three glued ones.

On this issue, The Saturn Dude must prevail, his customers have the right to post about their boats, no matter if he asked them to or not, unless he is giving some incentive or they are family/part of the business, which I doubt, the opinions of cutomers are not commercial speak.

 

[mountainfish]

I say cheers to all the discusion. Isn't that what this mountainbuzz is about. Just my 2 cents....I am on my 4th season with my Vanguard and it shows no signs of it leaving me anytime soon. The dealer I bought mine from acctually convinced me it was everybit as goos as NRS otter that I was looking at. I have run countless class IV Runs...wrapped it...abused it in just about everway but flipping it.(I know it just a matter of time til I flip it) It will be interesting to see if it holds up as long as the more expensive boats. For now it gets the job done and keeps me on the RIO and thats what it is all about!

 

[montanamusher]

I remember back when import cars first became popular in the USA, the same sort of discussion was going on. People said that Honda's and Toyota's were junk and wouldn't last, now look at the marketplace. Is the same thing going to happen with rafts? Only time will tell.
To me, the bottom line is this. The vast majority of people don't want to spend $3500 to $5,000 on a raft. Rafts are essentially over grown pool toys and most folks don't need to have an expedition/ outfitter quality boat. They need something to run Class III and IV in several times a year. The Saturn is perfect for that. Its also perfect for people who are hard on gear and are going to destroy any raft in a few years. Saturns track well, handle big water decently, can bounce off river rocks well, and for most uses are well-suited and the icing on the cake is their cheap! American manufacturers need to wake-up and get competitive, or unfortunatly they'll end up like GM. If raft dealers and US manufacturers are losing sales to Saturn its not Saturns fault. Its their own fault for not providing the consumers with a product that we want.

 

[lhowemt]

Thank you for your opnion, and I appreciat the offer but I am happily married. Please let others continue to express theirs, without calling for mods to silence them.

Give me a break, a request to move the thread is not a call for silence. My opinion, I think the threads should be moved -> you keep calling for me to not express my opinion. Are you a CM troll?

 

[lhowemt]

I remember back when import cars first became popular in the USA, the same sort of discussion was going on. People said that Honda's and Toyota's were junk and wouldn't last, now look at the marketplace. Is the same thing going to happen with rafts? Only time will tell.
To me, the bottom line is this. The vast majority of people don't want to spend $3500 to $5,000 on a raft. Rafts are essentially over grown pool toys and most folks don't need to have an expedition/ outfitter quality boat. They need something to run Class III and IV in several times a year. The Saturn is perfect for that. Its also perfect for people who are hard on gear and are going to destroy any raft in a few years. Saturns track well, handle big water decently, can bounce off river rocks well, and for most uses are well-suited and the icing on the cake is their cheap! American manufacturers need to wake-up and get competitive, or unfortunatly they'll end up like GM. If raft dealers and US manufacturers are losing sales to Saturn its not Saturns fault. Its their own fault for not providing the consumers with a product that we want.

Now that's a good discussion point. While it is somewhat similar, I think there's one major difference. At the time in the past you are talking about, US products were JUNK. Big old clunkers that cost a lot and you didn't get anything, not even reliability. The US made rafts are very high quality, with a high level of customer service, and so you still get what you pay for.

I think this is one place I agree with Shapp (god forbid!), about buying locally and trading our dollars with our neighbors and friends. If we don't, even though the cheap imports may improve, the high quality local products will decline in quality in order to compete if no one will buy them. I think, especially boaters, don't make life decisions solely on $, if we did we wouldn't be blowing all this money and time and gas and such on spending time on the river. If you can get a US boat, great! If not, I hope you can buy some things local/US and keep your money circulating through fellow boaters. We aren't going to keep our economy going with the Wal-Mart mentality. When the economy truly tanks, how are we going to afford all that cheap plastic crap from China? Shoes, clothes, etc? I think the career of the future is a cobbler, or seamstress.

Who's YOUR farmer?

 

[montanamusher]

Now that's a good discussion point. While it is somewhat similar, I think there's one major difference. At the time in the past you are talking about, US products were JUNK. Big old clunkers that cost a lot and you didn't get anything, not even reliability. The US made rafts are very high quality, with a high level of customer service, and so you still get what you pay for.

I think this is one place I agree with Shapp (god forbid!), about buying locally and trading our dollars with our neighbors and friends. If we don't, even though the cheap imports may improve, the high quality local products will decline in quality in order to compete if no one will buy them. I think, especially boaters, don't make life decisions solely on $, if we did we wouldn't be blowing all this money and time and gas and such on spending time on the river. If you can get a US boat, great! If not, I hope you can buy some things local/US and keep your money circulating through fellow boaters. We aren't going to keep our economy going with the Wal-Mart mentality. When the economy truly tanks, how are we going to afford all that cheap plastic crap from China? Shoes, clothes, etc? I think the career of the future is a cobbler, or seamstress.

Who's YOUR farmer?

I see what your saying, and I understand the mentality. But, again most people don't need the quality of an AVON, or any real customer service when it comes to a raft (we are talking about an item with no moving parts here) Remember, for the vast majority of rafters, we are talking about a toy for them....an inflatable rubber toy. So keep that in perspective. Believe me, I have owned a whole lot of rafts, your not getting much more from a top dollar raft then you are a Saturn. In my eyes the "quality" argument just doesn't apply here.

 

[Captain Chris]

I think this is a great discussion, quite possibly one of the best I've read
I guess I might as well put in my 2 cents if anyone gives a rip.

first off,
Maravia boats are amazingly built. When you tour the factory you can see how the workers take pride in every aspect.
George who is the president and owner of Maravia is the only one who paints the boats with the urathane paint that makes them almost bullet proof. I believe there are only 1 or 2 guys that do the welding. A close friend of mine took his cigarette (just to prove a point and put it out on the boat and it didn't even leave a mark, he ran rivers that I would never even think about. One trip his Cat boat got stuck in a hole and when it came out the frame was in two peices of mangled up steel (not aluminum) and you could tell where the peices of frame tryed to rip through the raft. That was a site to see.
AIRE boats are good but heavy as hell plus they have gone over seas with everything eccept the actual AIRE brand. I think they got the hint and brought the customer what they wanted. An inexpensive raft.

One of the boats I own is a saturn raft and I love it but mind you, I've only had it on the water 5 times so I can't really contest to the durability.
The thing is that I run a non-profit river clean-up organization and we also take people with disabilities on outdoor adventures.
I've been doing this for 6 years now and have NEVER gotten a boat fully donated by the companies that build them right here in Boise. The Saturn is the only round boat on the fleet, the other 12 are cats.
The thing I know about Cody is that he donated the raft which makes him one of our biggest supporters. I have met so many whitewater enthusiasts who don't care about Trash in our river and I honestly gave up on convinsing them to donate. I have to hand it to Cody because He honestly cares and knows we don't have the money to buy equipment. On top of that he also volunteers with us. Hell the guy turned 3 new rafts (out of the box) into demo boats just for the cause in one day.
Even though I can't speak for the boats quite yet, I do know that he really cares about his community and that says something about caracter, at least in my book.

 

[Captain Chris]

Also, has anyone ever heard of Incept? it's a company out of New Zealand that builds rafts and cats. The Incept rafts are very similar in style to the saturn but are welded seems. They cost about as much as an AIRE.

I noticed one of you swears by Avon, I know nothing about them. Why are they so good ? I see them on Craigs list every once in a while and they are so friggin expensive even for the most hideous and oldest looking rig I've ever seen. fill me in!

 

[NoCo]

i had am incept duckie for years...i got it used and abused....used and abused it for 5 years myself and sold it to a guy that for my knowledge still abuses it...it was great...it was tough...i dont think comparing saturn to incept is even a comparison...one is glued in china and one is welded in new zealand...these are different manufacturing processes as well as different countries...oh yeah there different hemispheres..im glad your all happy with your rafts...im glad you all have decided to join this discussion instead of telling us how happy you are...i read someone mentioning taking it down the gore race...that i would like to hear about...i got nothing bad to say about these boats due to my lack of experience with them but also have nothing good to say about them either...ive seen one on the river...well not in it...i saw it at the put in with this hottie pumping it up...i didnt look to hard at the boat eventhough i couldnt help but look that way...we were in browns...kinda a mellow float...and she wasnt gonna float sidels or twin falls which i dont understand...the heckla takeout is kinda a pain in the ass to drive to,so much easier at stone bridge...if these things are gonna get respect then they are gonna have to earn it...and that saturn.com guy has to stop being defensive...that does not earn repect...