They need to be logged in hitting refresh for 24 hours after you surrender the permit.

 

Thanks



Thanks for theinfo.

 

Yes, but it involved you putting down your friend as an alternate trip leader when you applied. Otherwise, refresh for 24 hours after you drop it.

 

just to be clear so the OP isn’t forehead slapping himself, I seem to remember that it’s not a casual transfer to the alternate. that opens the door to all kinds of abuse and profiteering. I seem to recall it largely being medical reasons, deaths and needing to be documented? maybe someone else can chime in with more info/ clarity on it.

 

It's honestly just easier to get a fake ID with your name and a friends picture. They make them 24/7 in China off the exact same equipment our DMV uses. Shipping is pretty slow.

 

Hey that’s a good idea! I’ve never been checked anyways? So what IS to stop guys just showing up and saying good morning my names seydo and I have a permit?

 

Last time I did San Juan I didn't even see a ranger on launch day. That was mid-June.
Just sayin...

 

This is perfect as I was going to make a post about this today...

I scored an Lodore permit in the bum rush. Super awesome to get a permit but I was after a September launch because I have an invite on a Yampa trip this year and can't do both the Yampa and the Lodore during the high use season.

Though I was not going to be able to use the Lodore permit my brother wanted to make the trip. We planned our release of the permit on a weekday when we thought others might be distracted with other things and not checking for permits. It took 23 hours for the permit to show up on rec.gov which we were unable to secure... some else beat us to it darn them!! We saw the date come available.

So here is why I wanted to make this post. I've been increasingly frustrated at the scarcity of permits in the past years and the onset of recreation.gov has increased the probability that people can use a bot to secure these trips.

Fast forward to the other day... I released the permit and hired a bot to see if it could help us "transfer" the permit. We watched diligently for hours with no avail. We were convinced that the permit had come and gone but then saw the permit available the next day just before 7:00 am. Someone outside our party clicked and scored before we could.

Now for why this post is important to all of you. I hired a bot service to test its effectiveness as this might be the only way to get permits moving forward. It wasn't able to beat a human. I don't want to believe some else's bot beat us out on it. I hope the computers aren't giving a select group of people an advantage to getting permits that should be equally attainable.

I don't plan to ever hire a bot again...

 

This is perfect as I was going to make a post about this today...

I scored an Lodore permit in the bum rush. Super awesome to get a permit but I was after a September launch because I have an invite on a Yampa trip this year and can't do both the Yampa and the Lodore during the high use season.

Though I was not going to be able to use the Lodore permit my brother wanted to make the trip. We planned our release of the permit on a weekday when we thought others might be distracted with other things and not checking for permits. It took 23 hours for the permit to show up on rec.gov which we were unable to secure... some else beat us to it darn them!! We saw the date come available.

So here is why I wanted to make this post. I've been increasingly frustrated at the scarcity of permits in the past years and the onset of recreation.gov has increased the probability that people can use a bot to secure these trips.

Fast forward to the other day... I released the permit and hired a bot to see if it could help us "transfer" the permit. We watched diligently for hours with no avail. We were convinced that the permit had come and gone but then saw the permit available the next day just before 7:00 am. Someone outside our party clicked and scored before we could.

Now for why this post is important to all of you. I hired a bot service to test its effectiveness as this might be the only way to get permits moving forward. It wasn't able to beat a human. I don't want to believe some else's bot beat us out on it. I hope the computers aren't giving a select group of people an advantage to getting permits that should be equally attainable.

I don't plan to ever hire a bot again...

Thanks for that info.

 

How do you know it was a human?

 

Faith that the system is working like they intended it to.

 

Who's to say that a bot purveyor doesn't have many applicants to look out for and how would they notify "clients" in a first come basis. Would they admit to a person that say 10 other persons are ahead of you for a particular day or date range? If folks want to get screwed by bot operators that give you no guarantee of success - go ahead and use it. One less person to have to compete against in the real world and more equitable for me.

 

I think the San Juan is instant release.

 

Yes, the alternate trip leader can not apply to the lottery as an individual, but I do not believe there are any stipulations on switching the permit to the alternate trip leader. This is where the Grand Canyon way of doing things works. You have the person with the most points apply and then the person with the least points be the alternate just in case.

And yes, who is to say that someone else's bot didn't get there first. Best way to fix this is to release all canceled permits once a week on the same day. Every Monday morning canceled permits become available at 8 am, and it would be nice if Rec.gov let people know what would be available the day before so if the one or two permits coming up doesn't work they do not have to bother. They used to do this so that you could plan, now you need to hit refresh at 8:00 am, search for a date that is available and works, and then hope you have the fastest finger.

 

This is where the Grand Canyon way of doing things works. You have the person with the most points apply and then the person with the least points be the alternate just in case.

Worth noting that in this case the application is entered at the point level of the PATL, whichever is lower. Otherwise, my grandmother would be applying every year for me.

 

I'm only hoping that people whose bot failed lost money in the deal.

 

I guess…my beef with bot people is a stereotype I have in my mind of some fake tit Karen in her Range Rover parked right in front of the grocery store front door on her phone….I dunno iam sure it’s just sour grapes but I’ve payed some dues boating and it just kinda bums me out. Of course there are those of you here who have paid alot more lol!! So next time just try the fake id? Fuck it can’t be worse than Karen bot!? Yeah yeah yeah I know but….

 

@seydou

Don't listen to anyone on here. We're all full of shit, and a LOT of incorrect info has already been provided to you. (No, the San Juan doesn't work like the Grand Canyon). Call BLM Monticello, they're in charge of San Juan launches.


Mailing Address:
365 North Main
Monticello, UT 84535
Email: blm_ut_mt_mail@blm.gov
Phone: 435-587-1500
Fax: 435-587-1518
Hours:
7:45 a.m. - 12:00 p.m., 1:00 p.m. - 4:30 p.m.

Ask for "Brent", he's the chief ranger.

 

San Juan doesn’t have rangers at the ramp anymore. That’s what they told me last year when I was PH and they called the week before. Maybe they have them this year but they made it sound like no more. I also have not had an ID check in dinosaur since Covid, (4 trips) as either a passenger or PH.

 

San Juan doesn’t have rangers at the ramp anymore.

There are three rangers on staff and they're literally hiring for fourth one this spring.

Literally the entire west-coast "River Management Society - River Ranger Rendezvous" was held on the San Juan last year.

 

That’s verbatim what they told me last year. Only doing check in via phone so they can spend more time on the river.

 

In case you missed it, I'm calling you a liar. They're doing phone check ins, but that's not the only check in you may have to do.

 

Give them a call. Like I said, maybe they changed this year but that’s what they told me last year. They asked if I was familiar with all requirements and had all required gear. I asked if they would be at the ramp and they said no, that’s the call was the only check in and to have fun. What possible reason would anyone have to lie about that?

 

I think the point is that you could be checked at anytime and asked to produce a photo ID and permit, at the put in, during your trip, or even at the takeout. I wouldn't mess around, but I don't like looking over my shoulder for my entire trip.

One time on the Chama, Rec.gov was glitching and would not let me change the number of people from 1 to 3 launch morning before I printed, but I loaded up my wife and daughter anyways. I just hoped the ranger would be cool when we got there. Well when we got there the ranger wasn't around and we had to launch without inspection. I could not relax until we were driving home...

 

2 years in a row now no ranger on the SI ramp. This year PH was thinking about bailing and told him… well use your imagination.

 

Make sure when you’re trying to beat the system, post about it on social media. Just cancel the permit don’t post about it and take your chances. But let someone who can actually use it get a chance more than 3 days before the launch date.
The bot will probably win no matter what you do.

 

Do it

 

Pot, kettle.

 

Maybe I’m paranoid but it think your calling me either a kettle or a pot.
I was open about my dilemma about canceling late on the Salt. At no point did I try to game the system and I regret not canceling earlier. But we were go till a +- 12,000 forecast came out a day and an half before launch up from 6,000 four hours earlier and as a group we decided not to go. So beat me with multiple paddles like the trip that got attacked by a cougar.
This is about permits with plenty of time for others to use if the Permit holder will turn it in.
This post is about trying to game the already fucked up system so it’s even more fucked up for everyone else.
Peace out Zack. I have one of your Rapid Rungs and hope I never have to use it.

 

You were telling the OP to turn in his/her permit with time so someone else could use it, which you didn't do, in turn the pot calling the kettle black. Being open about wasting your permit is commendable, but it is still just that. You have been all over this site harping on people not to do that and then you did. I get it, the water was too high for you, and I'm glad you didn't put yourself, crew, or other trips in a bad situation. There is something to be said to have the experience to know when to call it, even if it is last minute, and I commend you for your decision. Its tough to bail on a trip you want to go on and the Salt is near impossible to predict. That said, maybe stop harping on people to do what you didn't. Shit happens right? People have to cancel, sometimes last minute like you did. I dont see this post (the OP anyway) as trying to scam anything, and you're still all over them. They got a permit, cant use it and simply asked if there was a way for his people who still want to go to potentially get the permit. Maybe if you had folks in your crew wanting to go you would be trying to figure out the same thing? It sucks letting your crew down when you cant go and are the PH. He/ she even asked if there was a way to give them advantage "properly and ethically" and even mentioned and was concerned about "stepping on toes". There are some replies here that are suggesting some less than above boards antics but the original post is not.

No doubt the permit system sucks. People not using coveted permits sucks even worse. People trying to scam the system sucks. We all get it, we're all in the same boat man....except those that got permits.

Im glad you have a ladder. I hope you use the Rapid Rung often for getting back in the boat after a cool off swim on a hot day and to practice so its a lightning fast entry when you need it. Have a great season.

 

The paddle beating didn’t knock me out like they did the cougar.
A couple of differences about my Salt permit. It was a cancellation with less than 3 weeks to go not a win from the original lottery. OP doesn’t say exactly when the trip is but I bet it’s more than three weeks out. We fully intended to go. Truck packed food bought shuttle paid for. Canceled 12 hours before my drive from Colorado. No last minute schedule conflict involved.
I’m just a crusty old fart who knows my river days are numbered and a lot of times I let my frustration with loosing out on the original lotteries and every cancelation release this year get the best of me.

 

So kind of off topic, but something I have wondered regarding the crappy odds of getting a permit, why don't more people that get lucky drawing a permit solicit to charge people to join their group? Is that not ethical or legal? I could just see if someone that didn't have the gear or experience, or even people that did but had space in their group, posting that they would allow someone to pay them to join under their permit. I for one would gladly pay to join a group rather than paying to go with an outfitter.

 

If you pay to join a trip over the mutual sharing of group costs, it is no longer a private trip and the permit holder becomes a commercial outfitter and needs a commercial permit and everything that goes along with it.

If I had to pay, I'd rather pay someone with proper insurance and training vs you hoodlums.

Definition of a private float trip

When the permit is being issued, the permit holder will mark the type of trip as “Private” after reading the definition of a private float trip.

A river trip is not commercial if (1) There is a bona fide sharing of actual expenses, including transportation to and from the site; (2) The trip does not include any costs for payment of salaries or expenses of any person to help with the trip or logistics of the trip; (3) Costs shared by trip members may include the costs of damaged or lost equipment, renting or buying minor equipment but not the acquisition of new equipment to the advantage of an individual or an organization. Persons involved in unauthorized commercial operations are subject to fine and/or imprisonment.

 

So, basically what I am saying is, if you have a permit for MFS or the Main, around the end of July or early August, please DM to discus what it would cost to join your group.