Yawn.....where did they get that name from, almost sounds like it came from the old Riot rolladex of names (Trickster, Prankster, Dominatrix.........)

Oh, I get it now (okay, I'm slow) - the "Hero" vs. the "Villian"......

 

Looks like they've got another hit. I've said it before, there need only be two whitewater boat companies, JK and WS, and JK seems to now be dominating. I still love my Diesel and Habitat, but the Hero and Punk Rocker became huge rivals to them. Now the Villian looks like it may take the prize. Kudos to JK.

 

Fairly quick to decide arent you? You see two pictures of a prototype and its hit? I musta missed something.

 

I love my hero, but I hope they do something to improve the draw cord/rope outfitting system. That's the only thing I don't like about their boats.

 

Let me qualify that I am in no way, shape or form an authority on creekboat designs but to say that "there need only be two whitewater boat companies, JK and WS" is a gross misrepresentation by my experience. To the contrary, the brands I see on the river are Dagger, Pryranha, LL and Prijon. I'm not sayin that JK and WS don't deserve some laurels but to say they are dominating the market? really?

 

Let me qualify that I am in no way, shape or form an authority on creekboat designs but to say that "there need only be two whitewater boat companies, JK and WS" is a gross misrepresentation by my experience. To the contrary, the brands I see on the river are Dagger, Pryranha, LL and Prijon. I'm not sayin that JK and WS don't deserve some laurels but to say they are dominating the market? really?

Redpaddle,

No offense to anyone. It is only one man's opinion, of course. Next season will be my 30th year of white water kayaking. In that time I have owned 17 or more boats and have paddled many others. Undeniably, all boats have been enjoyable to me. Over time there has been various leading design/perforamance dominance by different companies. In my opinion, Perception had it for a while, then Prijon, Dagger, Wave Sport, and possibly Jackson now. Again, just about any boat is capable of getting down the river and there are several top contending boats to justifiably credit as excellent tools. However, I would credit Wave Sport and Jackson as producing the top designs for performance and quality. And, as I have stated in the past, a third mentionable should give credit to Prijon for its advanced thinking in technology (HTP plastic) and having been somewhat inspirational in certain designs over the years. Right now, though, I see the Diesel and Habitat and the entire line of JK boats as dominating in design performance. It is my opinion that if you are going to buy a new boat it should be one of those. Maybe someday another manufacturer will come into leadership. I don't know how far boat designs can improve, but it seems to me that the all time best boats have come from WS and JK.

 

Don't get me wrong Ken, I'm not trashin on WS or JK, in fact I really want an Allstar. This design looks like the Jefe or Nomad and given the clever name I bet JK is looking to offer both styles of creek boat under their flag. The hero for people who like edges (a la Burn) and the Villain for people who like displacement (a la Jefe).

I don't go through boats like popcorn like some folks but it seems to me that if someone really brought a good design to the table with a construction that would last a few hard seasons then they would have something to brag about rather than imitating established designs.

Maybe it will be the new pinnacle of whitewater boats, who knows? But maybe it will just be another rendition of the other displacement hulls out there, but this time with Happy Feet!

 

Looks like a Jefe knock off with crappy outfitting.

 

You crack me up.

 

Guess what -- it's not really about innovation in creekboats, it's about making money with a new design that people will get excited about via the hype machine. People can run everything from the Stikine to the Tiegdale just fine in the current offerings, but companies have to keep making new boats to generate new interest. Not to say that new designs with slight performance enhancements are a bad thing, but the real innovation would be making a safe boat (with pillars) that has plastic that will last a hard creeker 5 years (htp) . . . but that wouldn't be too profitable in the long run, now would it?

 

Alex, you hit the nail on the head.

BTW, Jackson and wavesport probably have the poorest plastic of any company on the market in my opinion.

 

who is this going to piss off?



amen brotha. this "superior" crosslink is not what it is cracked up to be, or maybe it is. i cracked a rocker a while back and the worst part about it is it cant be welded. if you are going to have a boat that cant be repaired then make it last longer than the "others" on the market. i dont think the design or outfitting is bad, but i do think the plastic is subpar. i realize creeking is hard on boats but if you are going to charge an additional $200 dollars for a boat make it last $200 dollars longer.

once again a company should try putting some re-enforcement in the plastic to make it last longer and then they could rightfully charge a bit more for the boat.

 

The "durability" argument will go on and on for years until a legit system is in place to rate the boats. Everyone will always claim the boat they spent good money on is "bomber", and back it up with exaggerated accounts of the shit they've smashed theirs into. I'm no exception to this, we are all guilty of the "fish stories". Companies can claim their plastic is "better" by so many different standards that are all fairly irrelevant, and mostly just marketing hype. Until an independent company starts smashing these things into something repeatedly, and thus scientifically testing the strength the durability argument is nothing but a pissing match for what boat you think is cooler. I have no idea what this all has to do with this thread, but I just get tired of the "plastic" debate.

 

Looks like a rounder Nomad or Jefe

 

Come on Mythbusters! maybe CKS could do some smash tests....

 

The boat definitely looks SWEET from what is shown!! I don't see any outfitting in the picture to judge. (Hard to judge from a picture anyway's) I'm still eye F****N the new "Prijon Pure" (fan of German engineering)!! Ha Haaa!! I wonder if any other new boats will be coming out this season???

 

I can't resist a winter boat bullshit session.

Speaking of bullshit, it is total bullshit that we need to have a scientific test to determine if some plastics are better than others. It's well known by any creekboater (except apparently Tom who just learned) that the HTP plastics used by Prijon and Salto hold up much much better than the linear plastics. It's also well known that the old Wavesport crosslink plastics were on par. It may not be written up in Helvetica 12 point and bound in a journal, but there are plenty of field tests that prove this to be true.

As for all the linear plastics on today's boats, the differences are more subtle. There do appear to be some differences, but suffice it to say they all suck and in my opinion the best plastic is the one with the best warranty. If Jackson copies a Jefe and has a better warranty (which they seem to), then I say great, that's a innovation I'm down with. If they ever get their crosslink plastic fixed so it actually holds up, then that would be fantastic.

As for Jackson and Wavesport being the only real manufacturers out there - seriously KV, I generally respect your opinions, but on this one I call bullshit. The other manufacturers must have some incredible marketing machines to trick people into buying their vastly inferior boats because the rivers certainly aren't dominated by these JK & WS products.

My take is in the outdoors industry (same can probably be said about almost any industry) the product innovations tend to come in spurts. My observation is the Nomad initiated a spurt that lead to the current body of creek boats. New designs seem to all be very slight variations on theme, and that's fine. But I'm definitely with Alex that the low hanging fruit for creek boat innovation is durability. Since there's no market incentive, I think we need a government mandate.

 

I never said the plastics should be tested. I said the boats. You can use whatever plastic your heart desires. There are way more factors than just the type of plastic. How thick the plastic is in key areas, how the plastic is supported by the foam, how the outfitting connects to said plastic and so on. Every company has different theories on how all this stuff should work together. So I don't think it is really fair to say XYZ company is bomber because they use ABC plastic. My feeling is, until there is a legit way to compare this stuff quit bickering, and paddle the boat you're stoked about and gets you running what you like to run. In the end, I know this is all very much just wishful thinking.

 

Hull shape, outfitting, etc. are very minor factors in durability of the hull. Sometimes it is more of a a factor, like the first Nomads that had a wear spot at the front of the seat, and I think the M3s have a weak spot where the chines are. Dagger fixed the seat problem but those things still get crushed easier than playdough. Thickness tends to be limited by people's demands on keeping the weight under a certain limit. So really plastic in the major factor in durability and that's why it's the main point of discussion, not how the outfitting attaches.

Besides being mildly entertaining to talk about, I'm glad people think about and discuss such things. If not, there would be no new innovation and I'd have to paddle one of those long cigar boats with no back band and hand carved foam for outfitting like the old guys used to do.

 

Besides being mildly entertaining to talk about, I'm glad people think about and discuss such things. If not, there would be no new innovation and I'd have to paddle one of those long cigar boats with no back band and hand carved foam for outfitting like the old guys used to do.

LOL -- I probably qualify as one of those old guys. Sure wish we had today's equipment back then. This may crack you up -- hard hats, wools sweaters and socks, no thigh hooks and no foot braces were just fading out when I started. Then came the Perception Quest (maybe the worst boat ever, but it was plastic, had a plastic pillar and foot pegs). Yahoo! My how great we have it now days. Let's go boatin'!

 

KSC,

Good thougts. I agree that the Jefe and Nomad are excellent boats. As far as durability, I have found it to largely be a matter of the boater. Some people willingly or carelessly abuse their boats. Having had paddled 4 meter glass boats in class V early on, I aspired to try to be clean in my lines, and to treat equipment with care off the river too. I generally own my favorite boats five years or more and they are in great shape still when I sell them. The other durability factor is, of course, that some boats are definitely being subjected more often to sic decents by the best boaters these days. In which case, damaged goods should be expected. If Prijon makes a great design, and if someone really felt the need for an added pillar, they might have the ultimate durable creek boat. Otherwise, each generation of designs has generally improved the performance over the years and it is left to the boater to try not to abuse the boat. Everyone will likely voice support for the brand they own, are sponsored by, or work for. I'm just a guy that likes to boat and who feels that, even though the Nomad and Jefe are great creek boats, I prefer and feel that WS and JK have the best boats. Regardless, it will be interesting to see how much more boats can improve and which companies survive. I might consider a Villain now that my daughter wants my Punk Rocker. Which, for the health of the industry, we all need to encourage the kids and need to buy new gear.

Cheers to all,
Ken

 

Plastic?

The real problem is that plastic will never be as tough as the rocks we are crashing them against. Period. So, in time all kayaks will break. Period.

Now since we can't really fix that problem, let's move on. Boat design.

New boats equal new interest. Shops need customers to be excited about buying goods to stay in business and so do boat companies. So, if you want manufactures to build you boats in the future, someone is going to have to step up to the plate and buy a kayak today.

When is the last time you visited your local kayak shop? Stop by and say hey, they would love to see you. Happy holidays, and remember the dollar/ euro/ peso/ yen/ HKD make the world go round.

 

Nobody makes a creekboat that has a worthy design and decent plastic. Period.

Jackson plastic is complete garbage. Luckily their warranty system is one of the best but their warranty doesn't do much for me when I'm gorged out with a gaping hole in my boat. I'm not sure why people think the Rocker is a passable creeker but that's a separate discussion.

I'm proud of those who clean their lines and don't break boats but the reality is that many clean runs with clean rock-free lines involve some unavoidable mank. Day 1 Fantasy Falls? Mankpile at the standard flow. E. Kaweah? For every clean drop there is a nasty boulder jumble with mandatory rock contact. There is a day on the Middle Kings described as the "NSV Bullshit Day". Boats will hit rocks.

I once had a Dagger Crossfire that I swam out of 5 times, pitoned from 15 feet and never shouldered - only dragged it. It lasted 5 seasons before I sold it and I bet it's still intact and would probably last more laps on SSV than a brand new Rocker. I don't understand why nobody can make a decent kayak but it sure blows that every option on the market is such garbage.

 

Good point Ken, the boats probably would have been the least of my concerns. Kayaking in wool sweaters and hard hats sounds terrible, but definitely hard core.

Don, I don't get it. Plastic doesn't have to be harder than rocks, it just has to not crack when it hits them. Actually it doesn't have to not crack, it just has to not crack so easily and quickly. As noted many times, that technology already exists and is even employed in whitewater kayaks (which makes me really wonder how it could never exist), if we could just get the best in plastic technology to meet the best in design performance life would be good.

I'm sure if I was a better boater my boats would be subjected to less abuse, but as Tyson points out, some of it is just part of the game unless you put a lot of restrictions on what you run (OBJ anyone?).

 

There is a lot of room for improvement in hull materials. Its defeatist to think cheap linear plastic is the only way to go and we have to settle for current materials forever. I would gladly pay double the price for a creekboat that would last. Materials of construction is an interesting game. You don't have to make a boat tough enough to break rocks, you simply need to make it handle rock hits without permanently deforming the boat and losing water tight bouyancy. I've brainstormed different methods of construction that might accomplish this, eventually boat designers will make a breakthough.

I think creekboat designs are continuing to improve and we still aren't there yet. Most of the creekboats out today have more similarities than differences, but I think that there are sublte changes to rocker, hull shape, edges etc that are still being tweaked to get the perfect creeker. The nomad is great, but it could be a bit easier to turn, the jefe turns well but gets blown off line with the big bow, boats with a sharp edges eddy and carve and run big water well, but many prefer a more subtle softer edge. The primo creekboat is going to be a nuanced blend of the rocker, edges, length, volume, and shape to get the best performace overall.

I'm glad Ken cleans all his lines and doesn't break boats, but for the rest of us run of the mill paddlers, thats a pipe dream. I can miss 150 rocks on SSV, but the 151st is gonna be the one to rape my boat. I'm not good enough to make 100% of the lines 100% of the time and miss 100% of the rocks. Even if you are 98% on it, and you get out a lot, you are gonna crack current boats. If you only boated high water, breaking would be a lot less of an issue, but my season would be about 3 weeks.

In general I like what jackson is doing. The warranty is a step in the right direction, but its addressing the symptom (broken boats) vs. the cause (plastic too weak to handle creeking). I also like that they are playing around with different outfitting. I'm suprised it took them so long to get a creeker like the villian that has more design features than a 90 gallon cork (mega rocker). Could be a cool hull design. We shall see.

 

Does not look like a displacement hull to me...

or a Jefe or a Nomad

You can download the attachment for another peak of the proto!

David

 

Here's the above .bmp file

 

A couple more...

...there's a few more on the blog as well.

 

Don / Ken

Don, did you ever have to warranty an X or Y? If you did, was it run over by a car? I have a Jive in the shed that I splatted on every rock for several seasons that I bought from you. The plastic on it is still great. How many blunt's did you see break? What was once hair is now run every weekend, but the idea that the plastic is just as good doesn't hold water in my book. I would sacrafice 10 #'s in boat weight for a bomber boat I could trust. I wonder if the industry is taking care of itself with the weaker plastic. Also, alot of the industry is driven by park and play types in recent years. They may have more interest in the 10 #'s as it is more difficult to loop or perform the latest trick in. Anyway, it is fun to think about what could be. I think durability may be the next break through?

 

Don, did you ever have to warranty an X or Y?

I don't think I've ever broken any of my plastic boats. My Diesel does have a crease under the seat from using it for creaking some mank. So, yes the Wave Sport plastic is softer since the Y days and earlier. I am interested to see if Jackson's plastic is better this year. They were to intending to bake them longer to improve the bond and strength. Hope so! Nonetheless, one thing I really don't want is a heavier boat. I enjoy canyon runs and my body is not as young as it use to be. The ol' back, neck, knees, and shoulders have had a lot of wear and tear form a lifetime of impact sports. So lighter is my hope, but I agree that the conversation and pursuit for more advanced plastic techologies is of great interest for us all. In the meatime we're still having fun, aren't we? I will be interested to try this new JK design. It seems like a blend of a lot of designs factors.

Cheers!

 

FYI - Just opened an email from CKS about their sale and it looked like they may have some new rocker series on sale for $750 (get 'em) and some new Side Kick (hands down the best kids/young adult kayak ever in my opinion) for $650. And for those that think the Rockers suck, well there is a sweet used Jefe just dying to meet you. Just saying! Don't read anything into it. Just helpin' my brothas from other mpthas out. Those look like some good sale prices for the persons that aspire to upgrade. (Ahmmm, Clark.)

As the dude older than me said. "You don't stop kayaking when you get old, you get old when you stop kayaking." .... And start them kids young, too! As early as 2 or 3 in my opinion. In the pool and on lakes for a few years. Get 'er done! IMO watching the kids and gals take to the sport is almost as great as cleaning a 5+ river. (As you can tell I share the attitude of Glen Plake, which delights in seeing the old Europeans enjoying the slopes during their lunch break ... while he rides the lifts to lap more steep! And were is that next snow storm in CO anyway? Is this boating weather or ski season? One or the other ... let's go!)