[Chip]

get ahold of the madcatr -
MADCATR Creations - Custom Fabricated Stainless Steel and Aluminum Rafting Equipment

Looked at the site: interesting frames, fun spelling: "Trail Dolly— It’s like pushing a wheel barrel with a break."

 

[andynbreana]

I am an electrical contractor here in Montana, we bend alot of 1 1/4" aluminum conduit (6063). If you go to your local electrical contractor they will probably bend what you need. Most larger contractor have hydaulic benders that do the trick. Have you thought about mimicking the NRS style of frames? Really no bends needed and very adaptable.I built a frame from scratch for my Aire 156R and the only bends I had to do was for my foot bar and for my stern frame.

 

[HPMG]

Can' tell from your design, but I would recommend that you build the front bay to accomodate a seat platform or a cooler/drybox. .................... All my frames are build using Star Inflatables frame knuckles (high grade anodized speedrail type fittings with a whole drilled in for a keeper pin/bolt and stainless set screws).

Also I don't know if you have gear slings, rockbox slings, drop bags etc., but if not get them from Jan at StitchesNStuff (best prices and top quality), order by Jan 31 and get 15% discount
Gear for Whitewater Rafting, Float Fishing , Kayaking,

Also, if you are a fabricator, a flip seat bracket like Clavey's would be easiy to make if you have a bender.

Hope this info helps,

Jason
p.s. I'm not affiliated with any boating or gear company, just a boater

Yes, the idea was to have two drop bags in the front covered by a platform for passengers etc. The bay second from the front will be the same size as the rear bay to fit the cooler, in case it would be better balanced to have the cooler weight further forward in the boat. If I need more dry storage in the future, I would make/buy a custom drybox to fit the same opening as the cooler, so they could swap positions as needed. The cockpit area is pretty much locked in place to accomidate the captains boxes, so not much flexibility allowed there, and the front bay would always remain a passenger bench with drop bag. As it is, the length of this frame is past the flatline of the tubes a bit, so I can't add more length to the frame for more gear. This pretty much leaves me "locked in", which is why I was going to weld the whole shebang together. But the consensus seems to be that adjustability is better....a lot of experienced people here, maybe I need to rethink a bit?

I have a list of stuff to buy from stitches-n-stuff, sounds like now is a good time to place the order! I have heard lots of nice things about them.

I have seen the Clavey flip seat arrangement, and it looks like a really nice setup, Chip had built something similar in one of his frame threads, looked like a good solution.

Thanks for the info Jason!

Also, an idea to make the double rail frame "flexible". I made my own double rail frame, with the help of many friends. I can send you an autocad dwg if you like, or even pdf it. but all of the inner cross bars can move fore/aft on the inner rail. I have 2 front compartments, one would take my cooler or drybox, but for now it has a wood platform over it. To make the double rail work, and be "flexible", I used polymax grid - search for it on many threads on this forum, and used that as my platform over the side double rail. works great, not as strong as diamond plate (of course), but good grip for dogs, drainage, and if I need to move a cross bar I can. So I'm not pinned down to any configuration, if I want a radical change I could buy a new sheet of polymax for $17 and be set. Keep it flexible, you'll want to change it!

lhowemt, I'll take you up on the offer for the .dwg! It would be great to see another approach to this, the polymax does look like a nice solution, it can hang over the frame edge a bit to give a larger platform, but is lighter than wood. Thanks!

Have you thought about mimicking the NRS style of frames?

Yes, in fact Altrec sent a 20% coupon a couple days ago, and I seriously thought about just buying a Bighorn, or Compact outfitter to use this summer, to find out what I do/don't like, and then build my "dream" frame next winter with a bit more knowledge under my belt. For now I have decided to keep pushing forward building it myself, I think it will add to the whole experience.....

Thanks for the tip on the electrical contractors with benders! This might be a good solution to stay with the standard (pipe) style tubing.


I made a couple of phone calls yesterday, and to my surprise, I did come up with a source for 2" x .125 wall 6063-T52 tubing. It is sold in a 24' length, which is nice because I could then bend the entire perimeter out of one piece, having only one weld joint. Problem is it is a bit pricey, $149/length, vs. $35/20' length of 1.25 6063 pipe. Decisions, decisions......

Anybody have any pics of their frame setups to post?

Thanks again for all of the input and ideas.

 

[lhowemt]

How is it that the Clavey flip seat adds 2-3 inches of height above the cooler? What are you talking about, the flip seat bracket only adds less than 1/4 inch hight to a seat that is directly bolted to a cooler lid. You must be confusing the Clavey slip seat with a DRE type which is totally different. Also the Calvey type bracket rests on the cooler or dry box, it doesn't rest on the back rail so the width is very adustable to meet different box/cooler widths. Plus you can just take it off if you are using NRS or Speedrail type fittings.

Yes, I am confusing the two, you are correct. Thanks for pointing that out, because I had totally forgotten that and given up and gone with wood.

Do you secure the seat down in any way (like with a strap), so in case of a flip, it doesn't "flip" up and get ripped off? How do you like having to flip the seat forward, and get into the cooler or dry box? I sit on the cooler, and with gear in the back, have the lid open towards the back, accessible from the front. The one nice thing about the wood is I can tip it back. I wonder if the flip seat can be attached to the back bar so it flips back?

It sounds like you are building exactly what I just did. PM me your email and I'll send you the file and some photos. Yes, the polymax is nice since it goes wider, so you can have your double rail skinnier and sitting better on the tubes. It is sweet. One thing I ran into was what I considered a waste of space having two cross bars for each of the front bays. How would you hinge two platforms off one bar and not have them conflict? Simple solution is two cross bars, one for each platform. This is assuming the front bay opens back, and back bay opens front. I solved that with an accordian style joining of the two platforms. I'll post some photos tonight when I get home, and send more to you directly if you PM me. Are you having a hard time finding a drop foot brace to fit between your captains boxes? I did, since the NRS "deluxe" was too wide, our list guru tinkerer Chip, helped me with that too.

 

[lhowemt]

Looked at the site: interesting frames, fun spelling: "Trail Dolly— It’s like pushing a wheel barrel with a break."

Those catters are crazy. They do things like Class VI creeking, running stuff that is considered un-runnable. One of his usual boating mates, Shelly Becker, was the first woman to ever cat the North fork of the Payette, and I briefly met her this summer, and was fortunate enough to get a copy of her 2007 "year of the cat" video that shows how crazy those folks are!

They hike in their cats all the time, drag them through snow, on and on, and that's what they use those little carts for, packing them in.

 

[shappattack]

The clavey seat plate has a hole in the back to secure to the back bar with a strap (I use a loop strap). You can rig it to flip either way (on the front or back bar). I like it fine and always have a dry box under it. In that box is stuff I usually don't need to get to during the day. I put the muchies in my rocket boxes mounted on either side of the cockpit. Cooler is in front of the cockpit (no one gets to sit on the Yeti).

Foot bars for frames with rocket boxes/captains boxes in the cockpit: I have a T-shaped foot bar. I have a 10 inch rail piece that drops down from the center of the rail in the front of the cockpit monted with a Lopro, then a speed rail fiting on the bottom with the horizontal foot bar through the speedrail. A bolt in the speed rail keeps the foot bar from poping off under hard foot pressure. The bottom horizontal foot bar fits almost snug between my rocket boxes to keep them laterally stable in their drop slings. It is key to use the lopro because you will probably want a little angle on the drop piece and the lopro bolts allow sufficient tightening to keep the angle under heavy foot preasure when rowing hard away from that monster hole.

But of course the t shaped foot bar probably only works best with narrow boats/spans becaue the longer the horizontal foot bar the more leverage would be exerted when pushing on either end which might be bad for a really long bar. Mine is only about 14 inches wide (used on a super duper puma that has a narrow width between tubes of only about 31.5 inches at the point where the foot bar is.
Jason

 

[lhowemt]

For the group, some lame photos. One of the foot brace, the other of the raw frame, and another of the way I hinged the two wood platforms. the polymax goes on the sides, which only the footbrace photo shows a tiny bit of.

 

[raftus]

lhowemt - thanks for the photos. The hinge design is great.

HPMG, andynbreana - does the 1.25" aluminum electrical conduit have the same outside diameter as the NRS stuff (1-5/8")? I.E. can you use 1.25" speed rail fittings/nrs Lopro fittings with it? Is it schedule 40 or is the wall thickness different? $35 for 20' is quite cheap compared to what NRS charges - $4 a foot, or $80 for 20'. It's especially cheaper if it can be bought locally to avoid shipping charges.

 

[shappattack]

Of note is that aluminum prices are falling (world wide) due to the slow down in the world economy/building, there is a good chance that you can get 6061 schedule 40 - 1 1/4 nps for (annodized) for less than $4/ft at your local pipe supply shop.

 

[andynbreana]

Raftus-Yes 1 .25" conduit is the same as the NRS stuff. Same wall thickness and strength. I purchased a full fishing frame from NRS years ago for my 13' OTTER and spent way too much, when i got my 156R I decided to build one myself. I spent $220 on 100' of 1 .25 ARC (aluminum rigid conduit) and about $150 in LoPro fittings. Ended up buiding a four bay frame with stern and fly bridge and still have 30' of conduit to play with. I would suggest befriending an electrician that can purchase and bend conduit for you. You can also use EMT (electro-magnetic tubing) which is much cheaper (1.25" is $90 per hundred) and it is very easy to weld and bend. EMT is the same material that AIRE uses for their frames and what cambridge uses for the frames of their camp tables. Not as strong as aluminum, but half the price. HPMG- If you can get 20' of aluminum for $35 buck, i would jump on it. Thats right around what i pay and i get a discount from my electrical suppliers. Cheers

 

[HPMG]

It sounds like you are building exactly what I just did. PM me your email and I'll send you the file and some photos. Yes, the polymax is nice since it goes wider, so you can have your double rail skinnier and sitting better on the tubes. It is sweet. One thing I ran into was what I considered a waste of space having two cross bars for each of the front bays. How would you hinge two platforms off one bar and not have them conflict? Simple solution is two cross bars, one for each platform. This is assuming the front bay opens back, and back bay opens front. I solved that with an accordian style joining of the two platforms. I'll post some photos tonight when I get home, and send more to you directly if you PM me. Are you having a hard time finding a drop foot brace to fit between your captains boxes? I did, since the NRS "deluxe" was too wide, our list guru tinkerer Chip, helped me with that too.

Thanks lhowemt, great ideas! Just about exactly what I am in need of. Really like the hinge setup, I was going to make the top one solid piece covering both bays...much more convenient to only open one if needed. Yes, the NRS deluxe foot bar is too wide for me also...I think I like your setup better with the one piece top bar anyhow.


The $35/20' quote is for 1.25 6063 Sch40 Pipe from a (somewhat) local steel supplier I use (Modesto Steel.) A second quote I got was $40/20' from a larger supplier. Note that this will be bare aluminum, not anodized like the NRS material is (I least I think it's anodized?)

Thanks for the info on the conduit Andynbreana. Is it anodized? Also curious if the heat treat is the same as the pipe since it is not built to contain pressure?

 

[andynbreana]

HPMG- You can order it anodized or not. I am not sure the difference in price. I am not sure about the heat treatment of the conduit itself either. I havent ran into any durability issues and have definitly pushed the limits. My 156R spend about 1/4 mile upside down thru class III+/IV section of the wilderness section of the Middle fork of the Flathead at 12,000 CFS last june. Broke a blade and turned my oar mounts flat, but the frame didnt show any damage. Good luck on your frame. Cheers

 

[shappattack]

1-1/4 nps 6063 sch 40 aluminum conduit is not the same as 1-1/4 nps 6061 sch 40 aluminum pipe used by NRS

The OD is the same (1.66 inch) but the wall thichness may be as small as 1.33 inches for conduit but 1.40 inches for pipe (see http://www.atcelectrical.com/literature/pdf/ATC-L-1751_Alum.pdf, I reviewed several sites that reported various wall thickness up to 1.40). Therefore, the conduit ID is about (0.07x2) 1/8 inch bigger than for the pipe, which means a NRS Lopro fiting would not fit as snug in conduit as in pipe, although I don't know what the actual effect would be.
Jason

 

[HPMG]

I reviewed several sites that reported various wall thickness up to 1.40). Therefore, the conduit ID is about (0.07x2) 1/8 inch bigger than for the pipe, which means a NRS Lopro fiting would not fit as snug in conduit as in pipe, although I don't know what the actual effect would be.

I think you might be a place off with the decimal, the wall thickness for the pipe is advertised as .140, and the conduit at .133, for a difference of .007 (~human hair) per side, giving a .014 looser fit than the pipe on a LoPro.



Although made from the same alloy (6063) the tempers are different, but the tensile strengh isn't that much different:

Conduit 6063-T1

 

[HPMG]

Doh! Learning a new laptop, and somehow submitted the post before I was done!

Conduit 6063-T1 17ksi
Pipe

 

[HPMG]

OK, try again. Third time's a charm, right noob! Obviously the quick reply box is not for me.....


6063t1 conduit 17ksi, 6063-t52 Pipe 22ksi, and for reference 6061-t6 38ksi. The electrical conduit is probably plenty strong, as mentioned by andynbreana above, but I can't find a distributor that carries it locally, so I will probably be sticking with the pipe.

Just for reference should someone find this thread in the future, the consensus is that 6061-t6 should not be bent.

I am now leaning towards taking everyone's advice and abandoning the bending and going with an adjustable frame with LoPro and/ or Speedrails, probably verysimilar to lhowemt's setup.

Thanks again everyone for the input! Great resource here.

 

[lhowemt]

That super large front platform, is wonderful for passengers, except the dogs always seem to take it over! But that's ok, it is for them too.

This is our sweet little peanut, Lila.

 

[Chip]

What a pretty dog!

Random Note: part of the fun in this whole frame game is puzzling out all the industrial lingo as far as IPS and nominal size and similar: like Latin for priests.

BTW, I wasn't suggesting the aluminum conduit except as elbows (radius corners). Good 'ol schedule 40 pipe is mo' bettah for general use in a frame.

 

[shappattack]

Boy am I a dumbass (today), soon to come I will post some pics of a small cat frame I am making for 12' tubes. I am making some NRS-type welded yokes, but for smaller diameter tubes (21 inches).
Jason

 

[HPMG]

That super large front platform, is wonderful for passengers, except the dogs always seem to take it over! But that's ok, it is for them too.

This is our sweet little peanut, Lila.

Beautiful dog! She sure looks content in her spot.

part of the fun in this whole frame game is puzzling out all the industrial lingo as far as IPS and nominal size and similar: like Latin for priests.

I agree, it is very interesting. Gotcha on the conduit Chip, thanks.