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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am reading about the snow falling in Arizona. Does anybody have any projections that they know about whether the salt will run this year?
 

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I'm sure hoping it will. My family has permits in and things are looking good. Snowing in Cave Creek tonight, which is pretty rare. You have till the end of the month to get your permit in. If there is no water, you only have to pay $11 for permit application.


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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I'm sure hoping it will. My family has permits in and things are looking good. Snowing in Cave Creek tonight, which is pretty rare. You have till the end of the month to get your permit in. If there is no water, you only have to pay $11 for permit application.


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Is the snowpack still in the 60 percent range?


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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I agree with you lmyers. The salt may have a few days in her but nothing that will amount to a season. I was hoping somebody would give me the news I wanna hear. It is nice to see Colorado getting dumped on though!


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We get most of our snow after New Years typically. I'd say with this storm were off to a good start. It just need to keep coming! Feb and March can be very wet so get those permits in!
 

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You have till the end of the month to get your permit in. If there is no water, you only have to pay $11 for permit application.
Yes it is $11 now but if you win you have to decide 21 days in advance of your launch day to pay the $185 permit fee. Even 3 weeks out the Salt is difficult to predict. Because of this I have a policy that you aren't on the trip unless you pay a $10 non-refundable spot holding fee before the 3 week deadline. I have seen too many permit holders burned by so called friends.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Always get the money from people! I have been burned by some of my best buddies as well. I also think its a good idea to get people on the trip who do not mind hanging out and taking our time with the trip. The last time I ran a thru trip, the TL was a slave driver, cook crew was up at 5 am and we pushed harder than a commercial trip would. The moral of the story is to Enjoy some of the countries first rafting options and don't forget where you are.
 

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Yes it is $11 now but if you win you have to decide 21 days in advance of your launch day to pay the $185 permit fee. Even 3 weeks out the Salt is difficult to predict. Because of this I have a policy that you aren't on the trip unless you pay a $10 non-refundable spot holding fee before the 3 week deadline. I have seen too many permit holders burned by so called friends.
You know that this is a clear violation of the permit regulations, right?
 

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You know that this is a clear violation of the permit regulations, right?
How so? Seems like cost sharing to me as the $125 fee is non-refundable within the 21 day window so everyone should eat the loss equally, not just the permit holder. You are talking a net gain of $15 if the trip is cancelled (when you include lottery fee), assuming all 15 spaces are paid for in advance.


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no tengo
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You know that this is a clear violation of the permit regulations, right?
Since when is the permit fee not a group cost? I thought it was clear the $10 is a credit toward total group costs, not on top of group cost.

So lets say you win a Salt permit and you get 9 friends that say they will go on X date with you and they give you $10 as a deposit. You go ahead and pay the $185 so now you have spent $191 in group costs for 10 people. The water is fine so the group costs for permit and application are $19 each so they all owe $9 more.

Now say the trip has to cancel cause it's only 300 cfs. The same figures should still apply but in typical scenario half the people would not have given a dime or never get around to paying you, so at least by taking a deposit the permit holder isn't totally stiffed.

In yet another scenario the water is fine but Joe and Jill bail because they don't like the weather forecast. They should not get their money back, forcing everyone to pay more than was agreed on/expected - unless replacements for their spots are found.

I hope this makes sense and I hope people start owning up to their verbal commitments regarding permitted trips.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Mania, I totally understand where you are coming from. I would think most people would agree that being screwed is wrong. Fair weather boaters in my opinion are the worse.


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I really do not like the flat fee permit fees like the salt, dinosaur and now cataract canyon since the cost per person is a huge variable until you launch. it's much more clear on westwater ($10pp) or even the grand canyon ($100pp). you ask for a spot you are expected to pay that much.

My buddy just did a cat trip and got screwed. he put out a call for participants and had maybe a dozen lined up. so he thought that's pretty good and went ahead and booked and paid the $200 flat fee. turns out half of them bailed right before the trip so not only had he paid for their spots but also some group food. losers.

Private river trips are not a charity. There is no way collecting money for permit fees is in any violation of regs.
 

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I really do not like the flat fee permit fees like the salt, dinosaur and now cataract canyon since the cost per person is a huge variable until you launch. it's much more clear on westwater ($10pp) or even the grand canyon ($100pp). you ask for a spot you are expected to pay that much.

My buddy just did a cat trip and got screwed. he put out a call for participants and had maybe a dozen lined up. so he thought that's pretty good and went ahead and booked and paid the $200 flat fee. turns out half of them bailed right before the trip so not only had he paid for their spots but also some group food. losers.

Private river trips are not a charity. There is no way collecting money for permit fees is in any violation of regs.

If my friends can afford $500 coolers, composite oars, and other kitschy river gear they can pay $10 up front. Whether it's a violation in not, Mania is dead on. Permit holders should not be paying extra to subsidize those who don't apply or don't care to plan a trip. If someone bitches about paying $10 for a spot odds are they'll magically be absent from dish and groover duty. I've eaten several trip costs and it sucks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I think 39 percent is pretty damn good. January is gonna put a huge storm through there again. I think we could get a season. It's looking more promising. We just need it to be cold!


Woke up this morning at 10:13.
 
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