[Parkito]

Colordo saw a couple of first descents last year and hopefully this year will have more with the increased snowpack. First descents recently have been logged with such names like Treasure Canyon or Secret Ditch or whatever. I couldn't believe my eyes when someone actually blindfolded his paddling partner because he didn't want him to know where they were going. Maybe it was just a joke but here is my point.

Hopefully, most of us know that there is a Right to Float issue here in Colorado. And currently there are great people working on a ballot initiative that can change Colorado water law for the better. One thing that is needed for this ballot initiative to work is an entire inventory of navigable rivers in Colorado 50 cfs and over. I understand if your proud of your first descent and don't won't to share it with anybody else maybe because of private property issues or just plain ego, but everybody can win big if we work together on this. This is my first post to anybody on this subject. I will be working all summer on this project. If anybody reads this post and would like to help or knows the right people to contact, please email me at [email protected]

Thank you for your time,

Matt Parker

 

[rasdoggy]

I thought the same thing!!!

I thought that the " MY BEACH, MY WAVE, GO HOME" mentalty ended in the 80's in Oxanard, Cali or was stuck in Hawaii these days but it seems to be alive and well in the whitewater scene...

I agree that all the boaters need to get together behind this issue from the newest swimmer like my self to the Tao wannabe's out there (no disrespct ment).
I would like to just be able to know where some of these SECERET spots are just to watch some of you guys in with my jaw hanging...

"If you don't stand together you stand alone"

Everyone needs to get behind this water access issue just like we did for beach access.

 

[Phillips]

Yeah you friggin valley's, better look out because I just bleached my dreads, gotta new pink and black wetsuit, aquasealed my checkered vans. Better not shoulder hop my m wave or I'll blast you with in my dancer. Ah yes the beloved Surf Punks. . . remember what Jimi said. . . "and you'll never hear surf music again.

 

[ToddG]

i thought we were collectively over-it on this topic ...

to answer your questions about the two runs you mentioned.

treasure canyon: i was on the trip, but not everything (including a spectacular side creek with waterfalls) was run on the one trip that went down it. i thought that it was a noteable enough "find" & that the photos were nice enough that the cat should be marginally let outta the bag. i promised the creek's finders that i wouldn't tell anyone where it's at in the trip report UNTIL THEY HAVE GONE AND FINISHED IT. it was also made abundantly clear in the discourse that followed that once the creek is finished, the location & ALL THE BETA WILL BE MADE AVAILABLE. did you even read the thread? how did you miss this? in retrospect, i shouldn't have ever written that report. it has caused so much whining ... & practically zero excitement that there's actually something new & cool for EVERYONE just around the corner. i thought maybe people could enjoy the write-up, the beautiful photos that ben took, & appreciate/respect the fact that it is still in first-descent status(hence no location beta) -- guess i was wrong.

"secret canal": this "run" is ENTIRELY on private ranch. start to finish. the water, the banks, the road, the off-road drive-in, the take-out, the grass, & the dirt are all NOT YOURS. YOU DO NOT HAVE PERMISSION TO BE THERE. sorry, right-to-float does not apply cuz you don't have the right to float a man-made irrigation canal through someone's ranch. for evan to have posted location of this & invited the entire mountainbuzz community would have been inappropriate & would have resulted in NO ONE getting to paddle this. evan posted in his report that he would be glad to chauffer kayakers there. i suspect neither of you guys took evan up on his offer before dissing us.

as for the water bill agenda. that's a great agenda for everyone to get behind. but lambasting me on these two issues is the wrong way to advance it.

if you would like to discuss offline, my email is [email protected]

 

[rasdoggy]

dissin ???

If you read my reply it was writtin tounge in cheek!!!

It even stated NO DISRESPECT MENT...

 

[ToddG]

P.S. ...

to appease y'all, & to hopefully prove that i/we are not ultra-secretive territorial surf punk wannabe's (or "tao wannabes" either, for that matter) ... on monday, you will learn of a neo-classic low-volume creek that got first-d'd just last weekend. it will be complete with all the location beta, pretty pics, & even witty banter.

 

[steven]

i agree it is exciting to hear of new stuff and having the prospect of a new creek to run, and i for one really appreciate the story and photos on treasure canyon, but to not tell the location just because you guys didn't "finish" it is lame. i don't think people would be rushing out to "finish" it and try to take credit away from the founders. i understand that you were put in a tough situation, as a guest having to honor the guy's requests who took you, but it is still lame in my opinion. once again, i applaud the find, and look forward to the day the pioneers feel like sharing the info. maybe whenever they "finish" it. i'm on the edge of my seat until monday! oooohh

 

[ToddG]

i guess the word "finish" is a bit misrepresentative. it's not just the "finishing" of it -- it's that there is a sick tributary that anyone who drives to the put-in will cross over & see.

i'm kinda in both camps -- yeah, it's lame to withhold info ((how cool is a first d really, if no one else knows about it?)) ... and on the other hand, i gotta respect the crew's wish to keep it a secret till the trib gets run. that's just the politics of first descents. it's not new business either. back when great first d's were more plentiful, the politics were every bit as gnarly. we didn't invent this shit.

& the whole comparison to surf territorialism is way off base & sophomoric. i'm not even a "local" there & i'm not tryin to keep people out. if you happen to locate it on your own & first d the tributary, then congratulations sherlock holmes, you solved the mystery. no one is gonna hunt you down & slash your tires. give that shit a rest.

personally, as i said weeks ago, i could give a shit if other people know. i have so many other "secret" plans for this summer in other parts of the country, that i don't know if i'm even gonna get down to the southern part of the state (kinda sad given the snowpack that you have down there). & besides it is in the back of nowhere. but for the true creek hunters in colo, it will be well worth the wait. 'nuff said?

 

[RiverWrangler]

I couldn't believe my eyes when someone actually blindfolded his paddling partner because he didn't want him to know where they were going.

For the record no one was blindfolded and no animals were injured.

 

[Nathan]

If it would keep people from bitching about where a run is they could stop posting articles so no one would even know these runs exist. With the complaints I wouldn't be surprised if they did stop posting anything that has a location that is "secret" because some people don't appreciate it for what it is. Be grateful that you know there is new water out there and that you can see some of the information on it even if you don't know the exact location. There are hints of where these runs are and if you really want to run them put in some work to find them, or call Evan he said he would take people. Their point is not to be like a territorial surfers, but apparently they came off that way because they didn't give every piece of information.

 

[marko]

To all that bitch and moan about not getting the info on the newly founded creeks, HERE IS MY ADVICE

GO FUCKING FIND IT YOURSELF!!! These guys fucking study topo maps and hike miles to find this shit. They work their asses off to get the honor of exploring a new run. GIVE THEM SOME FUCKING RESPECT!!! I have seen ToddG come back from long trips that they didn't even get to paddle because they spent the whole time hiking in dense forests to find it. Then when they got there they found out it was to low or it was loaded with wood. Then they will even take the time to clean it out and wait for the right moment.

If you want these runs so bad...then exert as much energy as these guys do to study and find them. When you actually do something of this magnitude maybe you will understand where they are coming from. And when they are able to finish the long hard work that they put into the First D they will give you info of the directions to a beautiful resource. They will tell you about hazards, and levels and what to expect when running the creek. You should by all means THANK THEM!!!

Thanks ToddG, I can't wait to run this shit with you.

Yours truly.
Annoyed with people who expect the world to be handed to them without any effort!

 

[Cutch]

Nathan and Mark, thanks for understanding.

Nathan makes another good point. It takes a lot of time to do a trip writeup and describe a new run, make sure we are giving out the correct information and flows, etc. I just spent 5 hours this weekend at a computer typing up a trip report for everyone else to read and enjoy. So please, instead of complaining about what we don't tell you why don't you thank us when you see us for what we do take the time to tell you. Shit, I could be snowboarding right now.

 

[rasdoggy]

missing the point????

Ok my post was an attempt at a joke and apparently some people just didn't get it...

I believe the issue at hand in the first post is that unless as paddlers we all get together in finding the rivers and streams that are navigable and their locations listed as navigable waterways in accordance with USCG Inland Waterway Reg's. Bills like SB62 and the silly laws that state I am trespassing when I stand in a stream after one of my many swims will never be over turned. It was forward thinking like his that made private beach access a thing of the past in many locations.

As far as taking advantage of all the hard work done by the people that are getting these first descents, well I personally am still trying to learn to roll let alone not flip while out paddling on Decker's ,by the time I am able to "Take Advantage of others hard work" more than likely those places that are being found today won't be able to be run any longer due to urban sprawl or a new ski resort or fishing lodge will own all the property around it and anyway as a new paddler any section of stream I go down is a first descent for me.

As for the Tao comment... Who out there doesn't want to be like him? Balls of brass, In magazine's, desigining boats, a video star, traveling on our dime and getting PAID to do it!!!

 

[waynechorter]

rasdoddy,
I hope some day you end up as cool as tao, with his big brass balls. I heard he even lets supreme ass kissers even touch them, maybe some day you'll be so lucky. As for Todd G. Nice work finding these runs homey, Most boaters will never understand the amount of work that goes into finding new runs that no one else has discovered.
As for Parkito, after you've logged a couple years pouring over topo maps and hauling wood out of creeks you'll understand why it's ok to let some things remain a secret. I'm sure by the end of the summer we'll all know where treasure canyon is anyway, I seriously doubt that not being able to inventory the two creeks your talking about will have any drastic consequences to your work. If you where doing your work properly you could assertain from any topo maps of the state that the two rivers your so concerned about have over 50 cfs in them, and as all boaters know, anything is navigable. Don't get cocky cause you think your doing the world a favor. Todd could have not posted any info on either of these creeks but what fun would that be. It kept your board ass busy reading through it.

 

[Phillips]

Yeah. . . yeah. . . yeah. . .blah. . . blah. . . blah. Ragdolly still deserves props for the Surf Punks reference. Had to bust out my old vinyl copy of My Beach and rock out a little. Ya'll need to lighten up, give the old boy a break. . . have a cheetoh.

 

[217]

Parker I'm with you....I hope everyone in the great state of CO is doing well.

My Two cents-First Decents are bullshit
People have been transporting and hunting on waterways forever....let me say this again....someone has already been on your socalled first D. Kayaking is so appealing to me for a number of reasons but the best two are the brothership that kayakers feel for each other....example (i moved to socal and people are wierd here, you never know who is a creep, i started talking through boof to some guys about boating and guess what they invited me up and let me sleep on the couch, only boaters would do this for each other) and the other is being able to have fun and pushing myself mentally and physically without the competitive crap associated with other sports, its a far cry from the football which i got totally burnt out on. the whole idea of first decents isnt condusive to brotherhood or being non-competitive. guys from cb and gunny put there egos in check and welcomed me into the boating world by showing me how to be better, even when i was busy LOSING last years SPORT class at the gunny whitewater fest. MY HOME HOLE, they were giving me great tips, even the NONLOCALS were helping me out. imagine if when you were starting out and noone would give you beta, nimby(not in my back yard) in effect in kayaking. we all love the "bible" "crc". what is that book all about, info on stuff you havent experienced. if those guys had decided to keep that stuff to themselves???

so fuck first decents just have fun and pass on the legacy. dont do it for the "notariety(sp)". boaters are good people, we pack our trash out and we are low impact, does it make this secret creek some how not so good if others know about it. I say it makes it better. and if first decents are so important then run something that noone else has had the balls to do, not something you found first and decided not to tell anyone about it.

I havent really gotten into surfing here because they all seem to be about themselves. what a shame for a guy who loves the water as much as i do.

-aaron

P.S. I bet these are the same guys who work in the industry or want sponsorships for what they do but complain when they get paid six bucks an hour or cant get anyone to "hook them up" with money or boats. the industry is dependant on new boaters and word of mouth, not your "first D" or "secret" creek remaining secret.

 

[217]

"I seriously doubt that not being able to inventory the two creeks your talking about will have any drastic consequences to your work. If you where doing your work properly you could assertain from any topo maps of the state that the two rivers your so concerned about have over 50 cfs in them, and as all boaters know, anything is navigable. Don't get cocky cause you think your doing the world a favor. "

if you know matt then you know that this statement is complete bullshit. if you know how to read topo maps then you also know that you CANT ALWAYS TELL what does or doesnt have 50cfs in it.

-aaron

 

[rasdoggy]

Never Said I wanted to be ""COOL"" like Tao just said I wouldn't mind getting PAID to kayak and have the nerve to at least do a drop or two...

Gave up on tryin to be cool 15 years or so ago...

And if its true that anything is navigible, then colorado wouldn't have the screwed up waterway laws it does, go read your COLREG's about inland nav laws.

And thanks for the name change too, ragdolly is kinda fitting after today...

 

[Caspian]

Todd should get 'nuff respect for his work, as should the guys who sussed out the run. Keeping a lid on it till the run is completed is fine, and not unheard of - in climbing, people give the first ascensionist time to complete the project without poaching it. It's called respect - respect for their hard work. But hey - like Todd said - nobody stopping anyone from picking up a topo map and going for it. Not everybody likes the hard work part, I guess. Having said that, this is not at all like a "locals only" situation. I think the difference is quite obvious.

Kyle - you're right, you could be snowboarding, but then you'd break something in the park and miss half the boating season. Better type some more.

 

[milo]

hey hey hey... easy boys and girls....first d's are first d's... something that many thrive on...it is adventure boating to the max...go get 'em....and secrets...well, if they have to keep it cool then keep it cool...i personally i like VICTORIA'S SECRETS the best... although this toddG and his croanies may have some better secrets....shit is starting to get really gay(topic)... and blindfolds are for magic tricks...and parkito does read topo's....and if you want to fuck with him you gotta fuck with me....we'll roll into your town and slash your skirts, steal your drain plugs and move your bulkheads!!!!got it punks...wow, that made me feel real tough and now i know i'm gonna score more p#ss!!! if you see us rolling into your town wearing helmets and nose plugs....well, step aside!!!!! now give PARKITO the help he's looking for.... or else!!!!