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Discussion Starter #1
So I've finally taken the time to learn my off side rolls to go along with fine tuning my strong side. It's very exciting to finally be capable of an off side roll, even though I still struggle to not let my off hand blade dive (even just practicing the motion without actually rolling, it is diving some). I went ahead and learned the C to C and sweep rolls, and hand rolls on both sides (the hand roll is strong on the off side). I am also trying to learn the rodeo roll again, as I hope to use it on waves and holes. For some reason, between last year and this year, I lost it (after watching some videos, I think I know where it is failing).

So I find myself motivated to learn more and more rolls, but is it a good idea? I've already learned that if you stop using a roll, it's easy to lose it, and it's probably not realistic to continue using all these rolls on the river. Can it be detrimental to learn more and more, or can that database of knowledge be helpful in strengthening all of them, as they all share many concepts?

What are your thoughts? Stick to a couple rolls and make them great on their own, or learn as many variations as you can, which may help you understand all your other rolls from looking at them from another point of view?

How many rolls do you guys learn and which ones?
 

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There are 2 kind of rolls, those that get you up and those that don't. Practice rolling in current/rapids enough and you'll see what I mean. Most really good boaters aren't picking, choosing, and analyzing whether they're doing a c to c or sweep while getting raked across the bottom. They simply catch water with the paddle (wherever it happens to be) and roll.

In the end, they're all variations of the same thing, catching water and pulling the boat back underneath you. To me, all the technical stuff differentiating rolls is just a way of codifying the steps into an easy to follow system. Once you do it enough, you'll just find the water with your paddle and roll up.

So, to actually answer your question, if you can roll on both sides including hand rolling, you just need to go paddle and practice flipping/rolling in whitewater.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I do roll in whitewater quite often, well, for the most part. I did swim once this year, when I shouldn't have needed to. I find if I don't practice a roll, it eventually breaks down on me when I need it most.

I was practicing swinging my body over my back deck, which helps a lot with finishing questionable rolls, where they'd normally fail. This is hopes that I'll reduce my failed attempts.

In the past, I've practiced basically a C to C roll without a setup. Just slice the blade to the surface and roll up. I'm assuming this is the type of roll you are recommending, or at least the basic idea. Just get the blade towards the surface and snap. I'll start doing this in the wild and see how it goes.
 

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I think that is the idea- and also getting to the point of just rolling on whatever side and not really thinking about it. My original onside has become by far my weaker roll, because when I learned my off side, I tried to consciously go that way to continue to develop it. Now I still find myself going to my "offside" (still call it that even though it's better), even if that means swapping sides. Need to get that out of my head and go with whatever it closer/better.


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Most really good boaters aren't picking, choosing, and analyzing whether they're doing a c to c or sweep while getting raked across the bottom. They simply catch water with the paddle (wherever it happens to be) and roll.

In the end, they're all variations of the same thing, catching water and pulling the boat back underneath you. To me, all the technical stuff differentiating rolls is just a way of codifying the steps into an easy to follow system. Once you do it enough, you'll just find the water with your paddle and roll up.
Yep.

Keep learning new rolls. Even practicing the esoteric ones will solidify your "bread and butter" rolls.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Yesterday I did some practicing on my "just slide the blade to the surface and snap my hip" roll on both sides. If I was a bit more lax on my finish position, as I was originally taught, I wasn't nearly as successful. Then I thought about my hand roll and added a little of the hand roll finish to my roll, by leaning to the back deck and swing my body towards the center of the boat. This worked extremely well.

Basically I was doing what Eric Jackson shows here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBtL3Ko4Nfs

I then got my left and right handed sculling brace working like he teaches here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu_MkXs-TAI

I guess what I'm saying is it does appear that other rolls and braces help with each other.
 

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Sounds like you're figuring it out pretty well for yourself. I guess by rolling up from any position I meant even if your paddle isn't near the surface you can still get traction and roll up rather than slicing it to the surface. Does that make sense? Of course, getting it to the surface works too, sometimes you just want to be right side up asap.

Hopefully I didn't sound like I was trying to dissuade you from learning more rolls. The main point for me was just that they're all kind of the same or just different steps to get to the same basic function. The more you learn the less you'll distinguish between them.

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Bystander, Personally from a sea kayaking background, I use a rodeo/back deck roll the most because it gets you up fast. A c-c roll with no setup (like a brace) and a reglar eskimo roll if I miss my first roll. Handrolls are nice but (I think) difficlt to pull off in as a combat roll.
My advice for others -
1. Pick an 'always' roll ex. If I flip on my left I will always back deck roll on my right I will always no setup c-c roll
2. Pick a backup roll ex. I will eskimo roll if I miss my always roll
3. Keep 1&2 in tip top shape BOMBPROOF
4. Learn as many new rolls and techniques as you can!
5. Just do what gets you up fastest and safest.

Better to know a roll and not need it that need it and not know it.
Hope that helps, Owen

P. S. I may not have c-c roll quite right as I have dislocated my shoulder twice this season 😕
 

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There are 2 kind of rolls, those that get you up and those that don't. Practice rolling in current/rapids enough and you'll see what I mean. Most really good boaters aren't picking, choosing, and analyzing whether they're doing a c to c or sweep while getting raked across the bottom. They simply catch water with the paddle (wherever it happens to be) and roll.

In the end, they're all variations of the same thing, catching water and pulling the boat back underneath you. To me, all the technical stuff differentiating rolls is just a way of codifying the steps into an easy to follow system. Once you do it enough, you'll just find the water with your paddle and roll up.

So, to actually answer your question, if you can roll on both sides including hand rolling, you just need to go paddle and practice flipping/rolling in whitewater.
I have rolled exactly twice...ever, both times in a pool. Value my comments accordingly...

Only a couple of successful rolls, BUT I have taught martial arts of varying style for more than 15 years and this type of mindset is both accurate and very unhelpful for people with less experience. You are commenting from a position of mastery (not perfection), and when we attain mastery in a physical skill, the details of the action all "melt away" and the pure essence of the action is all that remains. That being said, you can't teach somebody the "pure essence" of a movement, you have to teach fundamentals and iterative mechanics in order to achieve mastery.

Your last statement is exactly what I would teach a student who has attained a basic level of proficiency - use what you have and see how it works in all situations that you can find.

Nothing will slow learning progress like teaching from a perspective of mastery.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Bystander, Personally from a sea kayaking background, I use a rodeo/back deck roll the most because it gets you up fast. A c-c roll with no setup (like a brace) and a reglar eskimo roll if I miss my first roll. Handrolls are nice but (I think) difficlt to pull off in as a combat roll.
My advice for others -
1. Pick an 'always' roll ex. If I flip on my left I will always back deck roll on my right I will always no setup c-c roll
2. Pick a backup roll ex. I will eskimo roll if I miss my always roll
3. Keep 1&2 in tip top shape BOMBPROOF
4. Learn as many new rolls and techniques as you can!
5. Just do what gets you up fastest and safest.

Better to know a roll and not need it that need it and not know it.
Hope that helps, Owen

P. S. I may not have c-c roll quite right as I have dislocated my shoulder twice this season ��
Atm, I have a solid left and right roll, so do not feel a need to use the rodeo roll outside of freestyle tricks. I found the hand roll was remarkable at teaching me a universal truth with all rolls that finish on the back deck; if I finish low on the back deck and swing my body past the center, even the most aborted looking roll will work every time. I also plan to use the hand roll while doing some hand paddle surfing. It is supposed to be a good way to strengthen your surfing techniques.

This weekend, I also learned that a strong brace, and sculling brace has a way of making your rolling opportunities to greatly diminish. I haven't had to roll since I got them all working solid due to also learning the sculling brace, which I suppose is practically a roll that just starts before you go completely under water.

I do plan to work some on finishing over the front deck. That seems like it could come in handy.

Edit: if you are dislocating your shoulder, you really need to work on your roll. You likely are not turning your torso with your paddle. Try watching your paddle as it swings around, which tends to force you to turn your torso and helps keep your head down.
 
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