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Discussion Starter #1
Just curious what Pine Creek is like ~500. Still a V? The killer hole still retentive?
 

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Fun, we run it a lot at low water. Good in a creekboat, since the play is limited and the water is cold. Also good to get the cob webs off for when creeking season hits, which is now too.

If you like to playboat, check out the new BV hole. Put in at the BV boatramp, play in that hole, then float down to the new hole and rip it up.

http://mountainbuzz.com/album_page.php?pic_id=1090


Walk back up stream on the new trail to your car. Makes for a great weekend. If Pine Creek a "yawner" go paddle Lake creek at 190 CFS, plenty of fun too.
 

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Thanks for the info, but what I'm actually looking for is the opposite. I've only seen Pine Creek rapid at ~3,700, and there was no way I'd go anywhere near that hole...I have a bit of a giant hole phobia. So I've never ran it. Is it easy to skirt the hole at it's current level, or is the hole not much of anything at this point? Does the difficulty of the rapid drop to IV or IV+ at these levels? I'm also curious if it is worth putting in at Granite, or if you'd recommend putting in after the dam. Sorry for the 20 questions.

Clinton
 

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Pine Creek is fun all the way down to about 170CFS. I would call it class IV. Right now at 500CFS it is still four'ish and the hole is not a big deal. The reason it would be a 4 would be because it is still fast and shallow so a swim wouldn't be fun. The hole doesn't get sticky until about 800 or 900 up to about 2800CFS. But even at 900 making the move around it is not that difficult. At around 1200 and up is when the move gets very challenging and the hole gets NASTY. I ran Granite at 650CFS and it was fun. The dam is not worth running (too much mank)

And, actually, at 3000CFS and up the Pine Creek hole is not retentive. Trust me, I ran it at 3300 and it was the most fun I have ever had on the Ark. The whole thing is one big flush (except the big ledge hole on the right after 3-drops) Even that ledge hole is hard to get to. Don't get me wrong, the hole at 3000 + (which turns into more of a gigantic breaking wave) WILL smack you down and flip you, but it will not keep you. Now granted we all were in playboats so maybe a creek boat might have more of a chance to be hole bait, but the playboats flush right through.

Hope this helps.
 

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Chaos (3 drops) is the bigger danger

Pine Creek Rapid is good early season practice. I soloed it and the numbers today. I scouted Pine just to make sure no logs or anything new is present. There is not. Same old lines. (left, left, center, right, hard left at the S Turn). It is easy to catch eddies and slow it all down. Below the S turn and through Chaos (3 Drops) is boney. You wouldn't want to flip there or very many places now. 500 is really is calss IV as long as you stay up-right. There is a large pine tree across the river about a half-mile or more below Chaos. Passage is possible on the left though. All in all, it was good to be back and was a good work out with all the eddie hopping practice. Afterwards, I went to Cottonwood Hot Springs. There were 7 Big Horn Rams hanging out there the whole time. It was a very cool day.
 

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I ran PineCreeek/Numbers with BKC today and I paddled a Jackson 4Fun and BKC something fairly similar. We thought it was a good time. There is an elegant move at higher levels which we didn't have to do at this flow. Just stay right as you approach the big hole and paddle strong left. It looked pretty tame at 500. I probably could have punched it, but it was too cold.

I think we saw Ken getting out.

Marko, since you have run it above 3000 I will defer to you.

The hardest rapid was just past the big hole. I believe it was called three sisters. Heck, 5 was fun at this flow.
 

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Pine is always fun and exciting, but between 1500 and 2000 it is not a bad idea to consider walking past the S-Turn. I've run it as high as 4300, which is like riding a white frieght train barreling down on you. You don't miss the hole then and the force is incredible. But 1500-2000 is when you don't want to miss the cut. Check out the LVM footage of last year's FIBArk Pine Creek Race for a little sample of the ass kicking it delivers. It won't let go. That one gal that cartwheeled and rolled about a dozen times in the hole before swimming was testimony to the bravery it takes at those levels. I loved the video narration when she was relentlessly trying to escape the hole and the camera man, in disbelief of her persistence, yells out something like "NO...F***ING...WAY!!" :shock: That gal was a champ.
 

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granite

Put in at granite unless your short on time. Little pine creek and a boulder garden are a good warm up for the bottom half.
 

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i love little pine creek, that might be one of my favorite rapids anywhere.

anytime im passing through the area and not boating i always like to stop at that little capground right above an.....uh....enjoy the scenery...next to the rapid.
 

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450-750 is imo the best levels to run/learn the pine creek line. Just take a look at it before you run it, you can memorize the whole thing and talk your way down it. Grab the eddy on the right where Pine creek comes in. Then just point towards the big rock and shoot right behind it, 9 times out of ten I usually nip the left corner of the hole, no biggy at these levels.
 

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we ran it a couple of weekends ago and it was fun for intermediates...curious though, reading thru, marko says that at whatever level they did not find the hole retentive in play boats, but maybe it might be in creek boats.

is this a commonly accepted understanding? i always just assumed that the creekers would not be held in something where a play boat might??? maybe the difference is that when boating upright this logic holds, but as far as getting worked in a hole, size matters more than edges? any thoughts anyone?

anyways, i did not run the hole even at the super low level cause i suck, but my buddy did and it didn't look bad. our first time down, but seemed to be a damn fine run, even at the low levels.
 

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Creekers are always harder to get out of holes than playboats. They are more stable while in the hole itself, but getting out is tougher because they're like a big cork. No edges and a lot of volume make it harder to flush out. You'll find that out for yourself in time.
 

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I mean left, I mean left!! Behind the big rock. Ooops.
gregmcrae said:
450-750 is imo the best levels to run/learn the pine creek line. Just take a look at it before you run it, you can memorize the whole thing and talk your way down it. Grab the eddy on the right where Pine creek comes in. Then just point towards the big rock and shoot left behind it, 9 times out of ten I usually nip the left corner of the hole, no biggy at these levels.
 
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