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Hey weekendalpinist, have you ever rowed a legend or a wave destroyer? It so how do you think they differ from the at. I keep thinking the things that make my wave destroyer hard for me are remeded in the st or equivalent. Iam am not , I repeat NOT a class v boater or really even class 4 lol so I don’t need the rocker and volume and short waterline. I need more reliable momentum lol
 

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Hey weekendalpinist, have you ever rowed a legend or a wave destroyer? It so how do you think they differ from the at. I keep thinking the things that make my wave destroyer hard for me are remeded in the st or equivalent. Iam am not , I repeat NOT a class v boater or really even class 4 lol so I don’t need the rocker and volume and short waterline. I need more reliable momentum lol
I haven't rowed either of those. Their tube tips are definitely up in the wind more, and a little shorter waterline. Probably turns even faster, maybe not a good thing as the ST tubes turn plenty fast. So the tracking on an ST could be a little better. I've done a lot of class IV but no class V, mostly multi-day with just myself onboard. Never felt like the tubes should be any different, but I'm not pushing the limits. Had an absolute blast with that boat in the Grand.
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
Just pulled the trigger on a 14’ hyside thundercat. Super pumped to build out the frame and gear it up over the winter. Big thanks to everybody for their input, and to bgillespie at Jordan river boat works for the great deal and putting up with all my questions. Will post some pics as it’s coming together.
 

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I have rowed a 16' cat for over 15 years, I have set it up as a gear boat, a sport cat and everything in between. 16' works for me for everything. Good Luck and have a good run.
Oh, by the way I am selling this rig with motor and trailer and bimini.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
For all you experienced cat boaters out there, what are your considerations for how wide to make your frame? This cat will see III/IV action and will be used for multidays and day runs with a modular frame setup. Looking at two options at the moment, one that would leave about 39 inches between the tubes and the other would leave about 45 inches between the tubes. Hyside has thundercat tubes at 23 inches in diameter and mine look to be a bit over that, around 23 & 1/2 to 5/8.
 

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For all you experienced cat boaters out there, what are your considerations for how wide to make your frame? This cat will see III/IV action and will be used for multidays and day runs with a modular frame setup. Looking at two options at the moment, one that would leave about 39 inches between the tubes and the other would leave about 45 inches between the tubes. Hyside has thundercat tubes at 23 inches in diameter and mine look to be a bit over that, around 23 & 1/2 to 5/8.
I don’t know that I qualify as “experienced” especially on the Buzz. But: I’ve settled on 36” on 24” tubes as my personal sweet spot for my skinny local runs. That said, it’s been plenty stable in bigger water. If I got another frame it would be 30-32” for creeky stuff. 45” seems really excessive to me, but I’m sure it would be rock solid stable.

I think 39” is the practical choice here. I bet you find yourself in many more situations where you want the narrowness than situations where you’re wishing for more lateral stability. 39” is plenty wide IMO and a good all-purpose measurement.

Congrats on the new tubes!
 

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The only cat I’d make at 45” between the tubes would be an 18’ Grand Canyon boat. That’s roughly what mine is. My day boat and trip boat are 42” between the tubes. That’s maybe too much, since it’s uncomfortable trying to get up on skinny scout rails. But they’re super stable, and it works out well for the power side of the oar dimensions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
Very helpful! I already have a full setup of cross bars for my 16' raft that would give the 45" between the tubes if those cross bars were used for the cat (adding drop rails). Wanted another set of cross bars so there'd be enough to run the cat and 16' raft at the same time as the kids start to row the cat on their own while I'm in the raft. Will definitely be getting a narrower setup for the cat for this purpose - probably going for 35-40 between the tubes based on the advice so far.

Is there ever a situation were 45" between the tubes on a 14' cat might be advantageous compared to 35-40" if you had the option? - maybe high water trips where a bit more stability would be useful?
 

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You gotta be able to re flip it too. I know my 12 foot still required some effort so a big wide heavy boat may be pretty hard. Of course maybe it would be hard to flip in the first place lol! Wish it where easier to try stuff cause it’s hard to know exactly except by trial and error it seems. I have a recretec break down frame I’d sell ya for a decent price if you’d like. I was going to try and sell it this spring anyway. The frames on 13 ft ocelot tubes for reference
 

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Very helpful! I already have a full setup of cross bars for my 16' raft that would give the 45" between the tubes if those cross bars were used for the cat (adding drop rails). Wanted another set of cross bars so there'd be enough to run the cat and 16' raft at the same time as the kids start to row the cat on their own while I'm in the raft. Will definitely be getting a narrower setup for the cat for this purpose - probably going for 35-40 between the tubes based on the advice so far.

Is there ever a situation were 45" between the tubes on a 14' cat might be advantageous compared to 35-40" if you had the option? - maybe high water trips where a bit more stability would be useful?
Assuming these are adjustable NRS-style pieces, could you buy yourself a couple inches on each side by placing the side rails far to the outside of the chafer strip? You might be able to cut it down to 40” with existing parts?

I’m sure that if you sent a normal framed cat and a 45” frame through a rapid with no rower, the narrower cat would flip (Edit)
More. But…unless your freakishly tall or plan to build a hard floor, standing on the scout rails would be next to impossible. And how to reflip it? Sounds tough. Also, at 45”, your waterline would also be about the same as the boat width and I bet that rowing a square is terrible. Could be wrong.
 

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I agee with what has been posted.

When I had the 18 foot Aire Cat my frame was in the 40 inch category and it was much more stable especially on big water. I never flipped that raft.

Now my go to raft is a JPW tubes on 24 inch wide framed minicat that if I get lazy on heading into bigger waves it is flip city. But, that boat goes any where I want to go these days.

I have also had a 16 ft RMR cat and if memory correct I had the frame built to carry some 39 ish long dry boxes.

Bottom line like most every thing it depends on where you will mostly boat with the middle width being a good compromise.
 

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Is there ever a situation were 45" between the tubes on a 14' cat might be advantageous compared to 35-40" if you had the option? - maybe high water trips where a bit more stability would be useful?
Short answer is No. If it’s tight enough water that you’re in a 14’ boat, you don’t want the extra width making it harder to get through slinky tight spots. My 2 cents.
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
You gotta be able to re flip it too. I know my 12 foot still required some effort so a big wide heavy boat may be pretty hard. Of course maybe it would be hard to flip in the first place lol! Wish it where easier to try stuff cause it’s hard to know exactly except by trial and error it seems. I have a recretec break down frame I’d sell ya for a decent price if you’d like. I was going to try and sell it this spring anyway. The frames on 13 ft ocelot tubes for reference
Thanks for the offer, looks like a sweet frame. What are the dimensions? You selling the tubes too?

My stuff so far is nrs size pipe with a combo of Hollander and lopros, using Hollander fittings on a couple of cross bars that only see vertical load stress. Have a schload of stuff for that size of pipe so plan on making a narrower cat frame with the same pipe to leverage all that stuff. NRS/modular type frames have their limitations, but absolutely enjoy futzing with the configuration of the frame.
 

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Over the years for raft frames, I have used NRS size pipe, the larger Down River size pipe and welded conduit size pipe. Never had a problem with either size on the Western Rivers I have floated. My guess is size pipe only matters on the frame design and length of pipes used. That is long length pipes with fewer cross braces is going to require larger size pipe diameter.
 
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