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Being a ranger, I take issue with your not packing a fire pan if you're not going to have a fire. As far as the stipulations on the river I ranger on, a fire pan is required even during a fire ban, the reason being if you flip and have someone become hypothermic, you can build a fire without damaging the resource to warm them up, even during a fire ban, because saving a human life is more important... not saying you won't get a ticket if somebody finds out, but it's better than attending a funeral
I would like to counter with common knowledge that a campfire is a poor way to treat hypothermia. Also, the issue of fire scars is one of temporary import, measured in months if conducted below the high-water line, and days if conducted on the sand. So while it may be illegal, the intended benefit certainly outweighs the natural cost. Now, ripping up flora to fuel said fire is another issue entirely.

Law is law and I understand its nature is hardline. But that isn't going to stop me from asking during a launch inspection.
 

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And saw "commando" campsites with Walmart tents and Igloo coolers. No fire pans to be seen. Don't try to convince me they had groovers. Never heard of any ticketing.
Being primarily a packrafter, I can confess to being "one of those" boaters on the NF and MF. Although I never make new campsites, always use established sites. Being in a packraft though, I do not have a proper groover so to speak. I generally do my business while out hiking far away from the river, digging a cat hole and properly burying my waste and usually burn my TP and collect the ashes and put them in a "dirty" zip lock baggie. If I can't get away from the river to do my business, then I make sure to use a wag bag and I store my wag bags in a canyon keg that is water proof and then dispose of them at the end of my trip.
 

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The NFS ranger I know says that she can write you a ticket for weed. But it will be for introducing non-native and non certified plants. Same as if you were a packer with non certified weed free hay.
 

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The NFS ranger I know says that she can write you a ticket for weed. But it will be for introducing non-native and non certified plants. Same as if you were a packer with non certified weed free hay.
Now that's creative....
 

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Agree with this 100%. I can't imagine it being any fun at all, constantly wondering if you're about to get caught. I can't even envision getting a half-decent night sleep.
I'm all for camping in unusual and unexpected spots (like a quiet bridge right-of-way or micro beach in the off season)..but nothing illegal/poaching.
I do like the "getting away with it" thrill.

If you're worried about a ticket or worse, you're not having a relaxing trip, which pretty much defeats the purpose of the trip.
 

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All I’ve got to say is look at the rivers that have ranger or LE presence vs those that don’t. Thank you rangers and LEs!
You'll find that a managed stretch of river has rules, but each and every one of them is there for a reason. I've been boating long enough to remember when there weren't many, and then the sport exploded, and the resource took the hit, the rules were promulgated and the damage stopped, but it's hard to undo what's been done, sorta like the old "You can't un ring the bell".. The biggest rule change that really chapped my ass was the banning of dogs from Westwater. I fully understood the need for the rule, folks weren't picking up after their pets, and many a patrol I had bags with dog droppings in them after checking the camps.. I'm a volunteer, and not always out there, I can just imagine how sick the permanent rangers got of this.. I made my position abundantly clear, that education was the solution, but after 2 years of education, the volume of dog droppings dropped, but they were still there in quantity.
 

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You'll find that a managed stretch of river has rules, but each and every one of them is there for a reason. I've been boating long enough to remember when there weren't many, and then the sport exploded, and the resource took the hit, the rules were promulgated and the damage stopped, but it's hard to undo what's been done, sorta like the old "You can't un ring the bell"..
so, having seen the initial explosion in popularity...is this current one similar?

Completely anecdotally...say we jumped from 10 users to 200 users...of course this isn't the same exponential jump, but are we now at the "500 interested users" level of growth?
 

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It's that "bring a horse to water, but can't make him/her drink"....spent years in the field as a Leave No Trace Master educator, informing folks about pet waste, trash, going off trail, etc., etc.
only twice in that time did I find an interested ear, from Canadians and some youngsters who had never been hiking! People protect what they love, and until it's in danger,
or contributed to a life changing/mind set changing experience, there is a disconnect between nature and self
Remember camping in the backyard, digging in the dirt and swimming in cold mountain lakes? Is this even on the radar for kids and adults any more?
 

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It's that "bring a horse to water, but can't make him/her drink"....spent years in the field as a Leave No Trace Master educator, informing folks about pet waste, trash, going off trail, etc., etc.
only twice in that time did I find an interested ear, from Canadians and some youngsters who had never been hiking!
You got my attention. Is that something you can share here? A LNT thread/course for Buzzards?
I feel that I have reasonable LNT ethics, but willing to learn more. I'm also a volunteer youth kayak instructor and would love to hear some instructional tips on LNT I can share with the kids.
 

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You got my attention. Is that something you can share here? A LNT thread/course for Buzzards?
I feel that I have reasonable LNT ethics, but willing to learn more. I'm also a volunteer youth kayak instructor and would love to hear some instructional tips on LNT I can share with the kids.
Hey, thanks for your willingness to learn more!
The LNT website is full of free educational links for adults and youths for local parks, waterways and wilderness. The program has grown tremendously since its inception...you can request a LNT program (currently virtual), enroll in LNT courses with certification and much more
The kids like the programs because we talk about poop, and for the adults, how to comfortably and responsibly, shit in the woods
Check it out at lnt.org...I would be happy to share info and teaching tips, for anyone who is interested
 

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I'm past the point of trying to change strangers' behavior, but do think that kids are still our future...and they're future river runners. I can at least have some small and positive impact with one segment of new boaters.
Thanks 2tomcat2
 

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I made my position abundantly clear, that education was the solution, but after 2 years of education, the volume of dog droppings dropped, but they were still there in quantity.
A couple of other issues with dogs on the rivers (I miss having them along, BTW) are their digging holes all over campsites and also when they're allowed to roam free outside camp harassing the local nocturnal wildlife.
 

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As a tangent, we've had similar discussions about dog poo and what to do with it.
I still can't understand people who don't like dog poo in the groover. Dog poo is gross, but far less gross than people poo especially after Mexican night and we're legally obligated to deal with people poo.
Pick it up with a piece of TP, drop it in the groover, and go about your day!

Yeah, dogs really do have an impact on wildlife.
 

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As a tangent, we've had similar discussions about dog poo and what to do with it.
I still can't understand people who don't like dog poo in the groover. Dog poo is gross, but far less gross than people poo especially after Mexican night and we're legally obligated to deal with people poo.
Pick it up with a piece of TP, drop it in the groover, and go about your day!

Yeah, dogs really do have an impact on wildlife.
Fun Fido Fact: dog waste is only 75% moisture, leaving the remaining 25% as solid waste, a much harder substance for the soil to absorb; evidenced by coyote and fox scat that
can stay "intact" for a very long time
 

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so, having seen the initial explosion in popularity...is this current one similar?

Completely anecdotally...say we jumped from 10 users to 200 users...of course this isn't the same exponential jump, but are we now at the "500 interested users" level of growth?
It leveled off from what I have seen, around 2010, and ramped back up around 2018, with the current explosion IMHO COVID related. Judging from the permit statistics I've seen, we're likely at the "300 interested users" level of growth. The fact that companies like DRE are months behind making their gear, I'd say we'll be at 500 soon enough.
 

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As a tangent, we've had similar discussions about dog poo and what to do with it.
I still can't understand people who don't like dog poo in the groover. Dog poo is gross, but far less gross than people poo especially after Mexican night and we're legally obligated to deal with people poo.
Pick it up with a piece of TP, drop it in the groover, and go about your day!

Yeah, dogs really do have an impact on wildlife.
And if more people would have done this, we wouldn't have bans..
 
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