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Discussion Starter #1
What pulleys are you folks running in a flip/z-drag kit?
Need to set one up for the boat and looking to source three or so. I hadn't heard of Dyneema but after reading that thread, it is better than the standard bluewater static line I was planning on getting? Something else I shoudl be looking at???
Thanks for letting me know other tips or tools in a flip/rescue/z drag kit. Hope to practice some this spring when it's not necessary and would like to have the best informed gear around, which I know is no replacement for good experience and cool headedness in emergencies.
 

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Jared
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I use Rock Exotica pulls and Rock Exotica ORCA carabiners. They are a twist lock 'biner that are easy to operate one handed. I didn't buy any of it until I did a swift water rescue type class with some great instructors. One of them really put the math into perspective for me.
I have a 200' strand of 13 mm Bluewater waterline. It floats, and is long enough for most of the types of rivers I run. My prussic cord is 8 mm, nothing too fancy. They are the weak link in your rig, prussic are most likely to slip at around 1800 lbs of force or break at about 2400 lbs. My main line can handle at least double that, maybe triple, I can't remember now. I'm a rafter so big rope makes sense for me, I would never carry this kit for kayaks. I have 2 single pulleys, I may purchase a double pulley just for the hell of it.
Practice in groups. You can bounce ideas off of each other and learn to work things out together. Take a course, they are worth every penny.
 

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Misspellingintothefuture!
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I have about 150' of blue water static, nrs pulley's, locking D carabiners, 2 prussic cords, and a couple of good hunks of tubular webbing, along with a spare pfd in my wrap kit.

The spare pfd is key in my opinion, I clip it into the carabiner closest me, so that if something fails in the system, a broken carabiner or d- ring will be slowed down by the pfd if it comes flying toward me at mach 10. Imagine getting hit by a piece of broken metal at that kinda speed, Yikes!

I definitely second paying for a White water rescue course, worth every penny! And practice.
My instructor only wanted us setting up 3-1 systems, his rational being that a more powerful system was more likely to break gear, a 3-1 should do the trick most of the time anyway, if a boat is wrapped, proper angle of peel and pull is more important then force. Also, the prussic cord probably is what will break first, just protect yourself incase somethin else goes.
 

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Misspellingintothefuture!
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By the way, I have only ever used a z-drag to flip upside down gear boats, probably unwrapped at least 5 rafts so far, and never once needed a z-drag, you can do a lot with a flip line, or throw rope and boy scout pull. But the z-drag is still a very valuable tool incase you do need it.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks for the tips, need to check my older petzl pulleys and see the weight ratings, may be good. I plan on taking a swiftwater rescue course, maybe this summer, just trying to figure it all out.
Anybody got any great leads on expensive ropes and pulleys at the best price?
 

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Misspellingintothefuture!
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And be sure to go with static rope, you would not want dynamic, as it would stretch and waste your energy pulling.

Good on ya for making an effort to learn about boating, by the way, far to many people just don't even really try, and then just muck it all up and act like a complete goober.

The difference between education and learning, education is something somebody crams down your throat, learning is something you actually make an effort at, take initiative, invest in, on your own.

I all way's have respect when I see someone puting in the effort to learn about something they want to do.
 

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Greenwall,
That Amsteel Blue is some spendy rope! I am intrigued by the no load properties. I don't want to be a one eyed pirate. I have been looking for the right rope for my pin kit. How easy is it to pull? I was around a lot of 10mm ropes in my climbing days. I'm not sure I could have hung from one. Also,what kind of prussik cords and pulleys do you use with your system. Thanks
 

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I really like the Petzl Mini pulleys. They're lightweight, powerful, and work well with prusiks. Here's the link:

https://www.petzl.com/US/EN/Sport/Pulleys/MINI#.Vrg0dTYrLBI

In our commercial safety kits we use a heavier duty pulley for working with fully loaded 18' rafts. These work great for pretty much everything else.
 

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I use 5mm Tech Cord for prussic loops in my wrap kit. That makes my 1" webbing the weak link and I am happy with that.
I like having weak Prussic loops. A prussic failure is a pretty safe way to have the whole system fail. A webbing failure could be very dangerous to the people on the boat or the people pulling on the ropes.

My opinion is that if you're pulling on a system that has the rope, pulleys, or webbing near breaking strength then you need to try a different angle or technique.
 

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Misspellingintothefuture!
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I think you hit it spot on Zachary.
If your on the verge of breaking components, it's time to stop and re-think what your doing before something bad happens.
If something goes, prussic seems like the best of all the options, wouldn't be a great thing, but rope, webbing, beeners, pulley's, and d-rings seem worse to me.
 

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If your on the verge of breaking components, it's time to stop and re-think what your doing before something bad happens.
That's what I was getting at... if you are putting 4k lb on a line and things aren't budging, it's time to deflate or change your approach. With 10 average strength(75lb constant force) people pulling on a 3;1, there's no where near 4k on the line. Bump the system up to 5:1 and you're still under 4k with 10 people. Knowing I am far from my rope/hardware limits gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.
 

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Heavyswimmer,

Your math works out differently than mine so lets keep this discussion going as I very well could be wrong here and would like to know if I am. Here are my notes and assumptions about 3:1 systems:

Loading any of these items within 20% of breaking strength is VERY unsafe. To be safe you should be loading at 50% or lower than breaking strength.
- “Knot efficiency” is between 40% and 80% and depends on rope type and knot
--Figure 8: 69%
--Bowline: 63% (almost impossible to untie after 1,000 lbs)
--Double Fishermans: 73%
- An adult can pull 120% of their body weight with belay or 60% when pulling on a rope with their hands
- If everything is in good shape the prussic is supposed to slip and possibly melt the rope before anything breaks. This is why you use 6mm prussic line with two prussic wraps. Any more prussic wraps and it won’t slip like it should for safety.



Attached is a diagram that I put together to show loads and breaking strengths of the various components of a 3:1 system based on 6 people pulling. My diagram might be a little confusing so please let me know if you have any questions about it or if you can correct any errors I may have made.
 

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We have the same math, 3x1, I am just making unrealistic examples. I also don't think 6 guides can put 750lb on a line. It's not about strength, its about traction. Also, if 6 guides are pulling on the line, who is watching the customers?

Yes the diagram is pretty crowded but not unreadable. If you're going to show this to a guide school of beginners, I would consider revising and simplifying it.

A couple other things... There is no load value for the tree or d-rings. Considering some of the sun-battered D-rings and rocky banks with no trees that are out there.

Take the self equalizing anchor on the raft and forget it. D-rings are worthless. Girth hitch around the outer tube of the raft. Wrap 3 pull 2 for double.

Same at the tree. Wrap 3 pull 2, double the load, never worry about your webbing anchors again.

As far as knots and go, I just assume systems are always at 50% instead of 60% of their max load. I shave 10% off if I am not directly responsible for every aspect of the system at all times. 25% if the boater has dreads.
 

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Here are a few comments:

Also, if 6 guides are pulling on the line, who is watching the customers?
It could be any theoretical 6 people pulling on the system.

Yes the diagram is pretty crowded but not unreadable. If you're going to show this to a guide school of beginners, I would consider revising and simplifying it.
This is not meant for beginners. It's a reference sheet for myself and other experienced people.

A few things... There is no load value for the tree or d-rings. Considering some of the sun-battered D-rings and rocky banks with no trees that are out there.
Yes, this is theory. It would be really hard to put a load value on theoretical rocks and trees.

Take the self equalizing anchor on the raft and forget it. D-rings are worthless.
Not all d-ring are worthless. Maravia d-ring are bomber. AIRE and SOTAR d-ring are great too. Yes, PVC and older boat d-rings can pretty close to worthless for heavy loads. Knowing your gear really helps here.

Getting back to the original discussion - I like weaker prussics. I want the prussic to fail before something more dangerous fails. Since we're not out there with load testing equipment we don't know the actual loads in the system so I prefer to know what the weakest part of the system is and that if it fails it will do so in a fairly safe way.

- If one d-ring pops and you have a self equalizing system then the gear won't fly back at you and therefore still safe.

- If a tree falls over or rocks move then yes that can be dangerous. That's why selection of anchors is pretty important.
 

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I will stay out of the math but have used this a few times and thought it was cool to have in the kit, sealed bearings, both pulley and can be a capture pulley as well:

https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Pulleys/MICRO-TRAXION#.VrpOsNMrKCo
I have one of these in my personal pin kit and love it. I'm a big fan of 2:1 mechanical systems and this is perfect for some simple systems.

Definitely not for beginners though as you could put this in a place where it binds up and you can't reach it. It's great for redirects or 2:1 systems where someone is on the boat and able to release the tension if needed.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Anybody ever used a grigri from petzl as one of their pulleys? I've got one and wondering about using it instead of a prussik on the anchor side of things?
Please share your thoughts on good or bad aspects of this!
 

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Anybody ever used a grigri from petzl as one of their pulleys? I've got one and wondering about using it instead of a prussik on the anchor side of things?
Please share your thoughts on good or bad aspects of this!
Lots of good knowledge on here so sure there are lots of +/- and zcollier pointed out a few. The traxion will wear your ropes as they use teeth for traction is the biggest downside I see with them. Knowledge of how they work in whatever system you are going for is key. I thought the grigri used teeth too but it looks like it doesn't, haven't played with that one in a while.
 
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