[cayo 2]

Any info on the incident on Clear Crk? It sounded like it was on "upr" run .Don't want to make light of any death,but did find it ironic that it was a Texan on Clear Creek after all the negative feedback to the: 20 Texans want to raft Bailey or Clear Creek thread.

 

[cadster]

1 Dead In Clear Creek After Raft Overturned « CBS Denver

Probably been discussed before, but I wonder how a death effects a rafting business.

 

[gannon_w]

Hopper posted the story on the Front Range Kayakers FB page. The important thing was the inability to self rescue. The safety boaters said she was closer to 300lbs...in all honesty I think any rafter/kayaker should be able to do a pullup or at least be able to pull themselves into a raft in deep water. I don't know the lady and have never seen the lady but I doubt that she could, by herself get back into the boat. Even with assistance, pulling that large of an individual back in is difficult. It all adds to longer exposure and added fatigue on the swimmer.

 

[Blade&Shaft]

Perhaps now is neither the time or place to criticize the deceased... This is an inherent risk of our sport and as guides we all have customers like this at times. We have a long season ahead of us and run off has just started.

 

[racerx]

Perhaps now is neither the time or place to criticize the deceased... This is an inherent risk of our sport and as guides we all have customers like this at times. We have a long season ahead of us and run off has just started.

x 2

Going to be a big year waterwise so there will be deaths. Try to learn from other peoples tragedy but dog piling wont help anyone.

 

[Paddle_like_Hell]

Hey cayo 2, when you say "Don't want to make light of any death" but then go on to do just that you realize you're being a massively disrespectful douche right? Maybe when you finally buy the farm you will be honored with like minded urban Denver dwelling douche bags pissing on your grave but for now I guess you'll have to settle for sucking on my big hairy Texas balls. A women died, shut your mouth.

 

[gunnerman]

I guess my question is, should the rafting company have stricter rules for participants, especially in class IV water. Had this woman ever done class IV and should some kind self-rescue test be done. Should there be somekind of body weight guidelines if this indeed was a rather heavy person (300 lbs.) I realize everyone signs a liability waiver but maybe more scrutiny on companies side is needed. Just sayin!!

 

[tew]

This is the reason for the waiver is exactly for this catch 22, if you say no you can't go are you discriminating?
Paddle - take a minute read your post then read cayo's not much difference between the two, except cayo was trying to be tongue in check (maybe missed the mark). Just saying......

 

[Joel_G]

Some folks have no business getting on a raft, but they do not comprehend the likelihood and consequence of the risk they are accepting by joining a commercial rafting trip. Commercial trips imply a certain level of safety that does not, in fact, exist for those unfit to participate. Just like theme parks require that you must be yay high to ride the roller coaster, the onus is on the commercial rafting companies to deny admission to those unfit to participate.

 

[soggy_tortillas]

I personally don't feel a connection between our thread on Texans paying someone to guide/babysit them down Clear Creek and this incident was necessary in any form. "Tongue and cheek" in this scenario is just inappropriate no matter who it comes from; it's disrespectful.
I think Paddle is right, if this woman were from the Front Range you would probably have a very different view of this incident, regardless of what weight range she was in.

 

[Paddle_like_Hell]

tew, I do see your point and my comment was intentionally viscous, personal, and down right scandalous. Honestly, I couldn't find the " 20 Texans want to raft Bailey or Clear Creek thread" that Cayo was referring to and that may have shed a more logical light. Feel free to link to it for me if you would.

This time of year the handful of actual TX kayakers like to get on here and piss you guys off, purely out of our jealousy for your Spring spoils, but you've gone and deflected my veiled attempt.

However, conjecture after a river fatality can be useful but it appeared to me that everyone was concerned about two key aspects of the victim: The fact she was from Texas and the fact that she was overweight. Neither of those things is a full proof indicator of her abilities in or out of a raft.

 

[Paddle_like_Hell]

Thanks Soggy, I always liked you. How's the pizza business?

 

[soggy_tortillas]

Pizza? I got tired of making pizza for all you Texan fuckers. When I wasn't making pizza for the Texan fuckers I was making it for the fuckin Front Rangers, all just for the benefit of my employers' pockets (and usually some good tips, and some free pizza, of course). If anyone would like to buy me a pizza shop to continue to toss amazing pizza-pies under my own conditions, I'd be happy to (also amazing homemade ice cream!). Till then, it's commercial insurance.
That being said, as someone asked about how a death affects a rafting company, I'd assume they have a deductible to pay and their rates will go up upon renewal.

Oh and by the way- the Texan/Clear Creek reference comes from a thread about a week ago in which some "experienced" rafting guys from Texas wanted to hire a private individual to guide them down Clear Creek, provide meals and take pictures. Isn't there enough water in your rivers right now??? You guys should rejoice that you have your own runoff this year! Seriously though, scary stuff going on down there, my aunt lives in Conroe. Sending good joo-joo to all you Texas fuckers.

 

[tew]

Paddle- Death is morbid and therefore not humorous, I agree with you cayo missed the mark. To flame does not help the situation was my point. I further agree that conjecture and arm chair coaching do not help in us learn from these tragedies especial when the facts are not fully known, ie second hand or greater from the poster.

 

[GroverGrover]

300lb is 300lb I don't care where you're from.. People think this is an amusement park ride. Personal responsibility is key here if she was an adult. Call me a cold hearted bastard if you want. I'm sure lawsuits will follow and more legislation will attempt to be introduced. If I was 300lb I wouldn't be going rafting and I wouldn't let my friends/family raft either.

I feel sorry for the family for their loss. Especially because she had family present. I think rafting companies could also do a better job and representing the danger. If you're an adult though you share some responsibility.

 

[JeremyH]

I think rafting companies could also do a better job and representing the danger. If you're an adult though you share some responsibility.

This.

 

[restrac2000]

Doesn't it seem too soon to lay blame as the official investigation isn't even complete and public? I know the internet leads us to believe everything happens here and now but it doesn't.

Phillip

 

[mr.blunts]

Some folks have no business getting on a raft, but they do not comprehend the likelihood and consequence of the risk they are accepting by joining a commercial rafting trip. Commercial trips imply a certain level of safety that does not, in fact, exist for those unfit to participate. Just like theme parks require that you must be yay high to ride the roller coaster, the onus is on the commercial rafting companies to deny admission to those unfit to participate.

This comment is well put. If you are a guide it is your responsibility to keep your clients alive, bottom line.(not legally but thats the implied responsibility when you take this job) I think that 0% of this responsibility falls on the client. I have had 300 lb people sign up for Gore. Should they get to go because they signed the waiver?
I think some guides they find themselves in that in-between area where they don't want to hurt peoples feelings or their TL tells them to suck it up. Making this call takes experience and we all need to be more comfortable about doing it. Being a guide could mean bumping a whole party to an easier section without them realizing it and still having a great time.

 

[Whitewater Repairs]

As a commercial guide of 14 years I can tell you that there were many situations where obese customers had signed up for a class IV trip. As a TL I would often readjust boat loads to be sure that the person of concern was paired with a very senior and conservative guide, or I would take that person myself if allowable. As a TL and manager for a large company it often fell on me to be "that guy" that had the talk with the client. Many clients were very understanding and appreciative that we were thinking of their well-being. Others would get very upset. It was never a conversation I looked forward to. There were times that we had guests that I considered to be on the borderline of whether or not we should have that talk, but at least half the time I just readjusted boat loads and took that person myself, ran in the middle of the trip, and stacked senior guides around me. Anyway, the point is to be a commercial guide you have to have a bit of an ego, and there are times you tell yourself you can get this person down the river even if they shouldn't be there. You trust enough in your experience that things will be ok, and without that bit of over-confidence things would be bad when 3 boats flip and there are twenty people in the water. That confidence is what cleans up the mess. This is a tragic loss but I don't know how you can mandate a change in the way outfitters screen guests. They may show up and say I'm not obese, and you look at them and they clearly are. It doesn't always mean that they're at a higher risk than any other guest. I would always screen the waivers of our guests before meeting them, our reservationists specifically ask in advance if there are any health conditions, they even say, "including obesity." Less than 10% of the time people are honest.

Obesity is the greatest health epidemic in the US, everyone says it. Rafting is an adventure sport and marketed as such. People have to be honest with themselves and choose the milder trip. If you haven't exercised in 20 years it's probably a good idea to stick to the beginner section in rafting or the greens on the ski hill. If you put this on the outfitters you will end up unfairly excluding people that are making responsible choices. It's unfortunate that we live in such a litigious society, haven't you noticed that we can do less and less as time goes by?

 

[yetigonecrazy]

Sad to hear :-( I fear this summer may bring more if the water does rise. Condolences to the family.

Im not wading into the muck but we can all start agreeing to spell it right? Its "tongue-in-cheek"......