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Video of some Westwater carnage
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The mistakes are glaring, I am aware please be gentle.
I've been thinking of getting a higher floatation pfd a lot lately. That 30 seconds under water is why. I saw the mti atlas is a 28lbs rated vest. Not sure if it will interfere with rowing. Its out of stock currently, but I've had the idea rolling around for a while now. Probably going to run my old 16# again this year. Anyone use a high floatation pfd?
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Seriously man. I’m done carrying any gear in my pfd
First i dont run a rescue vest, I have knife, 2 purisks, 2 pulleys, cpr mask, and a tubular webbing flip line with a carabiner around my waist. Ive never needed both pullleys from my vest, Never needed both purisks, and never needed the cpr mask but im not removing that one. That might give me 1 pound of floatation but its far from the 12# gain the mti would give. Definately makes you think about these trade offs.
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Skull below 2500cfs is no joke. I've seen a lot of carnage at those levels. I've run it twice this year and seen carnage both times. First trip we had a guy get dump trucked, then the guy following flipped his Cat, and another guy got stuck on Razor Rock...managed to get loose, only to go sideways through the right slot. Second trip we had an IKer flip and swim in the hole above Skull Rock and ended up swimming through the right slot and went DEEP too (very similar to the video above). We got it all back together and decided to park the rafts in the room of doom and hike up the cliff above the rapids to watch others come through and got quite the show when the next group came through.
First raft made it left of razor but the second raft got rejected and ended up hitting the top hole sideways and flipped. The raft after him had the same thing happen but luckily didn't flip or have swimmers. The flipped raft and its passengers washed into the room of doom but the other two rafts didn't make it in there and didn't seem willing to come over...so my group helped get the flipped raft rubber side down again and got them settled while the people from their group drank beer and watched.
The only time I've ever flipped a raft was in Skull at these kinda flows too. Pretty pushy and a couple of holes that will eat your lunch. Double hit plus skull rock pushing water back upstream into the holes.
Oh...and this happened... big oops
First raft made it left of razor but the second raft got rejected and ended up hitting the top hole sideways and flipped. The raft after him had the same thing happen but luckily didn't flip or have swimmers. The flipped raft and its passengers washed into the room of doom but the other two rafts didn't make it in there and didn't seem willing to come over...so my group helped get the flipped raft rubber side down again and got them settled while the people from their group drank beer and watched.
The only time I've ever flipped a raft was in Skull at these kinda flows too. Pretty pushy and a couple of holes that will eat your lunch. Double hit plus skull rock pushing water back upstream into the holes.
Oh...and this happened... big oops
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Woa, nice dory though man. Did you snap a square top?
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Yep...sure did. That hurt almost as much as the Dory smash. Still have both halves... just a sad reminder for the moment but I'm gonna try to do something with them.
Fixed the Dory...but it wasn't easy...
From this...
To this...
Using these...
...and a lot of patience and fretting. Had to replace the wood part of the gunnels too...which was probably the hardest part for this non woodworker.
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No carabiners?(except the one from your flip line) I have two carabiners, 1 prusik, 1 pulley on me and the rest in my wrap kit in the boat. Thought being I can at least get a progress capture going while I wait for reinforcements if z-drag is needed. Also, they make small breathing barriers that you can use for rescue breaths instead of a full mask. Full mask is in first-aid kit.
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I have a 26# vest. It has a knife. Around my waist are two prussics linked with a pair of non-locking 'biners. I've used them all, several times.
I probably should add a couple more 'biners, a pulley or two, and a 60' 8mm hasty-throw line in a waist pack.
I sure would like some instant inflatable flotation ... something the size of a 16' Avon Pro that I could fit in my pocket would be nice. Barring that, a helicopter or a dirigible, thank you very much. I do not like being in the water. That's why my friends are Swiftwater Rescue types and know both ends of a throw rope and a Z. Practice, practice, practice.
I intend to add one little pocket on my waist pack to carry a bent Meerschaum pipe and 1/2oz of a nice mild vanilla aromatic cavendish. If I've gotta sit on a rock and watch you guys bobbing around in the water for any length of time ...
I probably should add a couple more 'biners, a pulley or two, and a 60' 8mm hasty-throw line in a waist pack.
I sure would like some instant inflatable flotation ... something the size of a 16' Avon Pro that I could fit in my pocket would be nice. Barring that, a helicopter or a dirigible, thank you very much. I do not like being in the water. That's why my friends are Swiftwater Rescue types and know both ends of a throw rope and a Z. Practice, practice, practice.
I intend to add one little pocket on my waist pack to carry a bent Meerschaum pipe and 1/2oz of a nice mild vanilla aromatic cavendish. If I've gotta sit on a rock and watch you guys bobbing around in the water for any length of time ...
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Holy cow man, yeah that’s a bad day for sure. Repair looks good though
I knew I wasn't the worst or best of us. I do believe I carry too much gear on me. I know people who carry more, then I also know people who only carry a flip line. Different schools of though I guess. So are you all for the high floatation? Or is that extra floatation just floating your gear? I'm really considering extra floatation and less gear.
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I don't carry much gear on my body... but I do like the look of the MTI Atlas. I've been kicking myself for not jumping on one from Cascade (currently selling for $89 there) before the XL/XXL went out of stock. I have a NRS Bigwater Guide which is fine...but its not exactly form fitting. Feels too much like two slabs of foam with some straps between them. The Atlas seems to hug the body better...plus it has like 4-5lbs more floatation then the NRS one. The only thing that has more that I can find are the commercial ones with the head flaps.
I definitely notice a difference between my 16lb float Astral PFD's compared to the Big Water. They both float...but I'm definitely lower in the water in the Astral. I'm also a big guy...270ish pounds...so it feels like its gonna be different for me vs. someone a lot lighter. I guess I could also see how it might differ with body composition though too. I have plenty of "padding"...so maybe my "natural floatation level" is higher compared to someone with zero percent body fat.
Speaking of Astral...I've thought about approaching them and seeing what it would take for them to design a high float vest. Feels like more and more people are going the rafting route and would maybe buy a higher flotation vest. I've like Astrals designs since they started (I have a 1st Gen astral vest that I still use on easy water since its super comfy and low profile). Might have to email them and ask if that is something they would consider.
If anyone has a MTI Atlas XL/XXL size and wants to sell it... I'm interested.
I definitely notice a difference between my 16lb float Astral PFD's compared to the Big Water. They both float...but I'm definitely lower in the water in the Astral. I'm also a big guy...270ish pounds...so it feels like its gonna be different for me vs. someone a lot lighter. I guess I could also see how it might differ with body composition though too. I have plenty of "padding"...so maybe my "natural floatation level" is higher compared to someone with zero percent body fat.
Speaking of Astral...I've thought about approaching them and seeing what it would take for them to design a high float vest. Feels like more and more people are going the rafting route and would maybe buy a higher flotation vest. I've like Astrals designs since they started (I have a 1st Gen astral vest that I still use on easy water since its super comfy and low profile). Might have to email them and ask if that is something they would consider.
If anyone has a MTI Atlas XL/XXL size and wants to sell it... I'm interested.
My friends were the ones filming from shore. We ran it a couple weeks ago in packrafts as well and one of my friends did the exact same thing as you in his alpacka. That same wave dumped him and he swam along the wall underwater, dragging his helmet the whole way. One of the scarier swims I’ve personally witnessed. Stay safe out there.
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I suppose I could increase my own personal floatation factor by adding a few pounds of fat, but that would be counterproductive. Aside from that, I like floatation. It's the "F" in PFD. It's the reason we wear the things. If any here don't like floatation, they are welcome to expound on the benefits of wearing a divers belt, packing a bunch of rocks, or wearing tanks and a brass diver's bell helmet. I've considered all the information I've gathered across the years (and no, I wasn't born yesterday!) and IMHO, the verdict comes down squarely in favor of floatation. If you ask a motorcycle rider what ATGATT means, he will tell you "All The Gear, All The Time." Every bit is calculated to save your (or my) sorry butt. Each of us has to weigh the consequences of our choices. That's why I'll shave an ounce here, or a gram there, so I can afford to carry a few ounces where it really counts. What are the odds I will need this thingamabob? And what are the consequences of not having this dohickus when I really need it? It's kinda like skydiving ... or gambling ... the Odds that one of your parachutes will deploy are pretty good! ([email protected] 40,000:1 ) That's good enough to take to Vegas! But what are the Stakes you see laying there on the table? (Uh, my life?) What would you advise a very-much-loved one to do? I'll take the floatation, thanks. And I've rarely seen an incident where there were too many carabiners, too many prussiks ... or too much rope. They're really cheap, for what they do.
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I reckon run river right of the tongue and then tag the right side of the hole above skull with the stern of your boat at an upstream 45 to slow some momentum and then pull around skull to the river left. The water below the hole is slow and boily and the water pushing off the river right wall is moving to the left. I reckon it seems crazy to run right of the tongue towards the right wall but the water piling onto skull will flush you through the slot if you don’t make the pull I doubt you’d flip on skull with the current on skull itself. I’ve looked at this rapid a lot from shore at these flows and have wanted to row it but I am usually kayaking! Techy Boulder garden moves for sure.
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Honestly, the only issue I saw was too many back, "stall" stocks. I hate those. Push forward as much as you can.. Always push forward until you need to stall....Momentum into waves works. Move the nose of the boat into laterals, let them push you back ... correct with the off side ore and push again. Try not let the water control you. In many years of boating I learned, as much as skill works (and it does mostly) try to control the situation. Go as fast as the water, even beater faster. Actually then you have more time to dance. the river is a dance..
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Sorry I should have read up a bit more. So other comments, and I do not do this often. The flotation of a PFD is a long running issue. Mostly bullshit. Swimming a rapid is no fun, high float or low. I have many and have swam in all. Depends on the water and hazards. WW at anything less then 15k cfs.. .really no biggie as far as float goes. Same with the MF and Selway and others of the same type of run. Push big water, more float is a bit safer (cat at 35+ Salmon at 30+ WW at 20+ just to name a few that most know) . The goal of any good boater is to stay on the boat "black side down". but that will not always happen. There was a saying back in the dim and dreary past when I started this lifestyle...There are only two kinds of boaters...Those that have done the big swim, and the others...
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Thanks for sharing this. This canyon is unforgiving and does not discriminate. I often see 'new' boatmen down there with a lack of knowledge and awareness of the consequences in that canyon. That is a tough rapid at that flow and you shouldn't be too hard on yourself. Glad your buddy is ok - that was a long time underwater.
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