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Ladies and Gents,

One of the main reason I went from ultra light kayak tripping to rafting, was comfort, Dutch Oven Cooking and really plush cot / pad setup.

Ultra light is fine for a specialized trip, but one of the best attractions of rafting is the comfort and good food they allow!!!!
 
Discussion starter · #22 ·
I like ultra-light for a couple of reasons. Lighter keeps the performance up epically on a cat. Les gear the lower profile your rig will have when you flip + you can keep your tunnel wide open Take out: My local river the Tuolumne has a bitch of a take out, after that carry you wish you would have learned how to roll a kayak. I am a reformed commercial guide so I was use to taking A LOT of gear. Less is better you won’t lose so much. Think like a backpacker: Tarp instead of tent, water filter and small bottles, whiskey instead of beer. We use wag bags for waste. Lots of places to reduce the load.
I wish I would have gotten single chamber tubes on my cat. Could have shaved allot of weight off with that.

I am curious some of the ways people rig their cats with gear but keep the "tunnel" part of a cat open. I was wondering if anyone has tried to fit their gear into zippered bags on each tube or do you just strap your drybags straight to the tube? It seems like the hardest part of doing lightweight trips is finding others who are game to cut some of the comforts out of a trip.
 
Here's the chair I got for kayak touring. It's a Travelchair Joey. Similar to the Big Agnes Heliox, just a bit taller. Easy for me to get in & out of with a bum knee, comfy, and packs down super small.

+1 on the Partner two burner with take apart hinge. I love mine. Small, but you can separate the sides and still get a bigger pot on it.

I LOVE my helinox chair...so freakin comfy and small/lightweight enough that it is my backpacking chair too. With that and my hammock I could stay in the woods forever. Otherwise my back starts acting up too much.

I'm a bit of a weight nazi when it comes to other people's gear. A lot of times I tell them bring clothes for x days, bedding and a *small* shelter. I'll bring and plan the rest. Otherwise they end up bringing entire cast iron cook sets and a 20'x14' canvas outfitter tent. Alot of the take outs I use are less than convenient, so I always have an eye out for weight reduction. Thats one of several reasons I love my NRS Revolution (urethane).

My external frame pack usually weighs in at about 26lbs w/o food or water when backpacking. But I carry some heavier comfort items including that chair ^, pump filter, chacos (wear boots or vice versa), gun etc...

I always think how easy it would be to boat camp this way, but then I think of all the space I can fill with cold beer.
 
I LOVE my helinox chair...so freakin comfy and small/lightweight enough that it is my backpacking chair too. With that and my hammock I could stay in the woods forever. Otherwise my back starts acting up too much.

I'm a bit of a weight nazi when it comes to other people's gear. A lot of times I tell them bring clothes for x days, bedding and a *small* shelter. I'll bring and plan the rest. Otherwise they end up bringing entire cast iron cook sets and a 20'x14' canvas outfitter tent. Alot of the take outs I use are less than convenient, so I always have an eye out for weight reduction. Thats one of several reasons I love my NRS Revolution (urethane).

My external frame pack usually weighs in at about 26lbs w/o food or water when backpacking. But I carry some heavier comfort items including that chair ^, pump filter, chacos (wear boots or vice versa), gun etc...

I always think how easy it would be to boat camp this way, but then I think of all the space I can fill with cold beer.
26 lb. base weight on your pack is pretty darn good.

I think overall, I'm with okieboater.....I like the extra comfort items. My tent is a bit bigger to fit my roll-a-cot, and for extra standing height. I bring a comfy chair. I love dutch oven cooking. The older I get, the more I appreciate the comfort items. That's my I'm a rafter, not a backpacker. On the flip side, I can totally see where folks are running some stuff in smaller cats where going light & small has a big advantage. My goal with my touring kayak is to find the balance between comfort & lighter/smaller. I have to keep reminding myself that anything I add is more weight that I have to move across the water with my paddle and portage. Here's another picture of my lighter weight alternative for kayak touring....
MSR Windpro stove, GSI mini table
 
Lightweight adventures

Something that has yet to be mentioned is group size...

Stoves, fire pans, fuel, etc weight the same whether it's a single boat trip or for 5+ people. As Mania can attest it's easy to do a lightweight trip with steak and a few beers and a paco pad when there are several like minded people packing light, even with port ages and carrying cats.

To me true class IV and V adventure boating is not lapping road side rivers with 10 people, but a small solid group in a wilderness setting where proper planning and group selection is more important then cooler selection or oar discussions. I'd rather sip whiskey on a rock in the middle of nowhere than drink my 12th pbr from a camp chair on a river where boating is a social mastabatory sport.

Luckily most rafters like luxury camping meaning some of us can explore remote runs where YouTube scouting is not an option. I love cooler and Dutch oven threads- it means I won't see these folks on my next lightweight trip. Now if I could afford a madcatr frame I'd be much happier and lighter. :)
 
UT,

Good Thread. Packing light is a fundamental tenet of my rafting style. I usually look at rigs and say, "What do they even find to put in there!?!?"

But, it's still rafting and often the impetus to optimize for weight just isn't there. I mostly hate spending my vacation packing and un-packing. I'd much rather throw everything in two small drybags, strap one to each tube, and go boating. Also, you can actually get things too light for on-water performance, particularly in big water hole-punching situations. Just sayin'. This threshold is different for every boat/oarsperson.

Here's how I roll based on trip type...

Light for fun/easy multidays up to a week, Class IV+ or less, no portaging:
IN: Chair, Rolltop, Firepan/grill/blanket, 2 brnr Partner stove with LiteCylinder (my guy still fills), croquet, small engel, small drybox.
OUT: Handwashing, extra groover supply box, tents, showers, DO,

Extra-Light for super easy mid-current reflip, portages less than 1 mile, Class V-
IN: Chair, Rolltop, Croquet, Fire stuff, Jetboil
OUT: Cooler, Drybox, Partner stove

Ultra-Light for long portages and technical Class V.
IN: Light Grill, Jetboil, not much else
OUT: Croquet, Chair, table,

Some things that have to be dealt with:

Groovers -- Forget the expensive ones. Use ammo cans and optimize size for the needs of the trip. WAG bag it too.

Repair -- Amazing what you can get done with a speedy stitch and tear aid. Worst case is really to leave a boat and have to come in again with appropriate equipment for your specific problem How bad is that? ANOTHER RIVER TRIP!!! Great excuse for the boss....

Pin-kits -- If your boat is light then it is easier to un-pin. I have un-pinned a lot of boats with the throw bag I already carry, a pulley and two ti-bloks (petzl) the pulley, tiblocks, lockers and anchor live in my lifejacket. Seriously, if your boat is light it is less likely to pin in the first place

Cooking: Jetboil for coffee and heating water. Super light grill and some aluminum foil for cooking everything else.
 
We do week long trips in our mini-me's and have room for a small chair, full cook set,small cooler, wine, small dog. Semi backpacking style. I've done 10 Alaska 16 day trips in home made pack rafts before you could buy them. That was full backpack style. Having a fabrication shop lets me make my own equipment.
 
...I wish I would have gotten single chamber tubes on my cat. Could have shaved allot of weight off with that.
What like a pound or two? Too me multiple chambers is the lightest "safety gear" you could get. I think a cat with one inflated tube would be quite difficult to maneuver...but then again I'm a rafter.

As for ultra-light boating, light boating or any other minimalist activity, it's not for me. For me, comfortable camp time is just as important as time on the water. I started doing overnighters backpacker style because that's all I knew. In time I realized that DO's, coolers full of beer, camp chairs and horseshoes were way more enjoyable too me than dehydrated eggs and rum with a hint of plastic while sitting on a rock.

Thankfully I won the lottery of life and was born a male in 'merica, in the late 21st century and grew up with a father that instilled the love of the out doors. I've been blessed with a lot of great experiences and have found that gear barge floating suit's me to a T - I get to choose what I put on my boat and when I get to do it!

Wooo hooo!
 
We really don't leave any comforts at home. It's about leaving what you don't need at home and packing well. There a lot of rivers with poor access that a smaller boat and light weight gear are the best way to go. I think people get out more with smaller boats where it's not a big hassle to get on a river.
 
What like a pound or two? Too me multiple chambers is the lightest "safety gear" you could get. I think a cat with one inflated tube would be quite difficult to maneuver...but then again I'm a rafter

I boated this summer with Neil & Lacey who are light weight fanatics.
I'm old with a bad back and bad knees and it was no problem to triple stack 3 cats on my trailer all by myself. The weight savings of single chambers is way more than "a pound or two".

Light weight gives you way more river options because you do not need a paved boat ramp. If we can get our trucks within a hundred yards of the river, that is a pretty damn fine put-in or take-out.
 
As for ultra-light boating, light boating or any other minimalist activity, it's not for me. For me, comfortable camp time is just as important as time on the water.
Most rafters are like elk here and go RV style all the time. I think there is a time and place for that but there is also a time for backpacker style boating to get you to the more remote and difficult places. I have a great story about people trying to RV style boat on a remote multi-day river and it was a disaster for them and a lot of work for us trying to rescue their asses days on end. anyways pearen, dgosn, raftus, gumbydamnit, st2eelpot, faucet butt, and utrafter lets do that trip next spring 100+ miles plus portages, class iv and v and whiskey.
 
There are times to go decadent (most of the time?!) And times to go minimal. Tough runs with bad portages and difficult access is what true expedition boating is all about. Expedition boating still really turns my crank. Not for most, thank God! My expedition boat of choice now is my 11x22 Legend, single chamber. Yes there is a risk with single, but weighing in at 18 lbs per tube is worth it...to me. I took it down Camas creek into the MF a few years back, probably a mile of portaging not counting numerous logs. With a light setup you just do a one person drag, or take gear in one load and two man the boat in the next trip for the long portages. Every pound starts to matter.

So some of my best gear discoveries, some already mentioned:

Sleeping bag 30 degree down RAB
chair: rei flexlite (similar to cataraftgirl's)
Thermarest neo lite air pad
Tyvek for ground cloth or emergency tarp if unexpected rain.
Shelters: megamid or msr twin brothers (both floorless sylnylon) for multipeople, or msr AC bivy bag (1 lb) and or msr Ewing (1 lb) for single person. One Noah's tarp works well too.
Fire pan use oil pan like Dana does
Whiskey/vodka. Or on camas creek gator bites (Everclear and powdered Gatorade woot woot). Powdered mix.
Plastic paint can for groover and ash bucket, but marginal legal on some rivers
I love steak but sometimes you just gotta go Mt House. Mixed nuts, jerky, Met-RX meal replacement bars..depends how long...fishing pole for survival.
Water: filter into msr dromedary bags..super light and easy to strap on.
Watershed dry bags. Even lighter is Sea-To-Summit Big River 35l bags but roll top only.

Will try to post a pic of my solo marsh/MF setup tomorrow.
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
Most rafters are like elk here and go RV style all the time. I think there is a time and place for that but there is also a time for backpacker style boating to get you to the more remote and difficult places. I have a great story about people trying to RV style boat on a remote multi-day river and it was a disaster for them and a lot of work for us trying to rescue their asses days on end. anyways pearen, dgosn, raftus, gumbydamnit, st2eelpot, faucet butt, and utrafter lets do that trip next spring 100+ miles plus portages, class iv and v and whiskey.
What is this trip you've got scheming up? I'll bring the whiskey.

We really don't leave any comforts at home. It's about leaving what you don't need at home and packing well. There a lot of rivers with poor access that a smaller boat and light weight gear are the best way to go. I think people get out more with smaller boats where it's not a big hassle to get on a river.
Absolutely. It is great that people love talking about their dutch ovens and how much more beer they carry but quite frankly I didn't start this thread to hear about it. Getting out on the river is what it is all about and cutting the amount of gear you have to rig, pack, unpack, purchase, and haul to and from the river makes getting out there that much easier. I know for me, getting home and cleaning out huge dryboxes, kitchen boxes, and 2,000 pounds worth of gear is the worst part of a trip. Being able to carry your stuff without having to sink your trailer, or spend 2+ hours on the boat ramp is key in my mind.

Some people have chimed in about how gear weight remains unchanged for a large group as it does a small group what do y'all think is a good size for a lightweight trip? I think that 3 - 5 boats in a group for a fast and light approach gives you enough people to deal with potential accidents, carrying capacity, while not being excessively large which could lead to group conflict.
 
I boated this summer with Neil & Lacey who are light weight fanatics.
I'm old with a bad back and bad knees and it was no problem to triple stack 3 cats on my trailer all by myself. The weight savings of single chambers is way more than "a pound or two".

Light weight gives you way more river options because you do not need a paved boat ramp. If we can get our trucks within a hundred yards of the river, that is a pretty damn fine put-in or take-out.
Not saying you shouldn't try to save weight, truly to each their own. BUT, in a "normally constructed" cat (where champers are created by adding a baffle inside the tube (NRS, Hyside, Sotar, many others) a quick search showed me that 1500 gm hypalon (from this site Hypalon Coated Fabric - Henshaw Inflatables Ltd) equates to about 44 oz/yd. Therefore this material (fairly heavy hypalon) weighs about 1/3 of a pound per square foot and leafield C7 valves weigh just over a 1/4 pound (Avon C7 / Leafield C7 Air Valve for Inflatables - With Apron).

So putting a baffle in a 22" tube would use approx. a 24" circle of material ~3.14 square feet x 1/3 lb per sqft is just over a pound. Add glue, seam tape (didn't even try to find weights but negligible) and a single baffle with valve weighs less than 1.5lbs. Muliply by 2 and you're looking at a 3 lb difference...even if you add a 100% contingency to my calcs your looking at no more than 6 lbs... Of course that all depnds on what kind of boat you have and how they create chambers (longitudinal chambers would weigh more for sure) other than old aires, who does this?

Again don't get me wrong have fun staying light, get back there shred the gnar, I just don't understand saving weight by removing chambers...

Somewhere up there someone used me as an example of going barge style all the time...which is not true... While I'm not a "class V" boater and likely never will be I've been to very remote places, "backpacker style" with my boat, like amongst the most remote you can get in the lower 48... No I didn't carry all my stuff in on my back, but we did carry a lot, portage, drag - true expedition style. People love to jump to conclusions...
 
Now redo your calculations to consider the actual construction techniques being used. As in full length inner chambers. I miss the days of a single center baffle, they were about 8 lbs less per tube. (As measured, not calculated)
 
Of course that all depnds on what kind of boat you have and how they create chambers (longitudinal chambers would weigh more for sure) other than old aires, who does this?
so I considered this, but couldn't find quick info online to show who builds boats with longitudinal baffles... my understanding is that most do cross sectional baffles, if this is wrong, so be it...my appologies for wasting your time... but I'd bet sotar and maravia would build them cross sectional if you wanted it that way....
 
so I considered this, but couldn't find quick info online to show who builds boats with longitudinal baffles... my understanding is that most do cross sectional baffles, if this is wrong, so be it...my appologies for wasting your time... but I'd bet sotar and maravia would build them cross sectional if you wanted it that way....
Sotar constructs a tube inside a tube, not even baffles. Picture it as a small tube bouncing around inside your outer tube connected at the valve and one spot on the front.

Ted don't post those MF photos you will make people cry... :)

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Mountain Buzz mobile app
 
Nah, you didn't waste my time, was just pointing it out. I thought nrs was doing inner tube as well. I've tried to get SOTAR to offer a center baffle but they say their construction process on the 3 panel design does not allow for it. It would only have to be mostly airtight to make me happy...if it bled air over a matter of minutes that would be enough time to get off most rivers.
 
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