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What is a good throwbag for kayaking?
Also, what is the difference between the polypropaline and the spectra ropes?
Also, what is the difference between the polypropaline and the spectra ropes?
Throwbags
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in response to your first question, go to www.mongoproducts.com, he makes two different waiste bags and a "bag" style throw bag. the smaller waiste bag fits under or around your lifejacket. the larger can be worn as a waite bag rafting or taken off the belt and stuck in your boat for kayaking...he also makes a bigger "bag" as well that can be carried in the stern of your boat.
to address your second question: spectra is the way to go...period.
to address your second question: spectra is the way to go...period.
Spectra is much stronger and doesnt stretch. Some schools of thought say that if you are dragging in someone that they will feel less of a yank when grabbing a poly rope. I would buy spectra for its strength, ah, heck nevermind just see geezers post above.
If I remember correctly, Spectra cord is extremely strong, but has a very low melting point and therefore should not be used in situations where it would be put through a lot of friction, ie in a z-drag to free a pinned boat, or for you rock climbers to raise an injured partner. Has anyone else heard/remeber this. Has spectra cord/webbing changed in the last few years.
Paul B, I think you are correct about spectra's low melting temperature, which is why it's used in water rescue applications but probably not in dry (e.g., climbing) applications.
However, I don't necessarily think spectra should be avoided for use in a z-drag. In fact, z-drag (or any other mechanical advantage setup) might be the best argument for using a spectra. Since the z-drag multiplies the force that you put on it by a factor of nearly three, it seems to me that it would be pretty easy to exceed the breaking strength of a 3/8-inch polypro with two or three people pulling on the rope against a pinned boat.
However, I don't necessarily think spectra should be avoided for use in a z-drag. In fact, z-drag (or any other mechanical advantage setup) might be the best argument for using a spectra. Since the z-drag multiplies the force that you put on it by a factor of nearly three, it seems to me that it would be pretty easy to exceed the breaking strength of a 3/8-inch polypro with two or three people pulling on the rope against a pinned boat.
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Unrelated to boating, but spectra actually is used in climbing. Just in situations where there are low chances for friction- such as for runners and cordalettes. -D
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The most important thing is to have a rope and know how to use it. Take a swiftwater rescue course first and foremost. A lot of guys like the Mongo ropes with the waist belt because the rope is always with you on your body no matter if you are boating, swimming, or taking a leak on shore and see a swimmer that needs a rope. There's a lot of different factors- length, width (some longer ropes are skinny and hard for a swimmer to grab) strength (a spectra rope has tensile strength of over 1000lbs usually, polypro is around 60% of that), cost (spectra is $$), wear and tear (sun, dirt, mildew degrade ropes), etc.
I would say bottom line- take a class, then you will have an idea of what you should carry. There's other stuff that goes with the rope too- carbiners, knife, etc. that you should have. If I'm in trouble and you throw me a rope, I'll grab it no matter which material it is!
I would say bottom line- take a class, then you will have an idea of what you should carry. There's other stuff that goes with the rope too- carbiners, knife, etc. that you should have. If I'm in trouble and you throw me a rope, I'll grab it no matter which material it is!
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Is that Paul Billings?Paul B said:
Spectra won't melt for anything you'd do boating -- even a short, controlled-speed rappel.
Smaller diameter is more stramline, but harder for gripping
LENGTH, no one has mentioned that yet. When I took a swiftwater course I was amazed at how short a 50 foot line was.
I would either buy a spectra 75' or a fat polypro 75'. Depending on your preference for bulk. Personally, I have a fat 75' 'cause I can huck it better with the extra mass and a swimmer can grab it easier, too. I want to say it's 7/16" diameter, but I'm not sure.
Smaller diameter is more stramline, but harder for gripping
LENGTH, no one has mentioned that yet. When I took a swiftwater course I was amazed at how short a 50 foot line was.
I would either buy a spectra 75' or a fat polypro 75'. Depending on your preference for bulk. Personally, I have a fat 75' 'cause I can huck it better with the extra mass and a swimmer can grab it easier, too. I want to say it's 7/16" diameter, but I'm not sure.
Spectra IS used in climbing equipment alot,(slings/runners/cordalettes) it's light weight and strong. However spectra, nylon & dyneema can melt is a matter of seconds if you let friction build up. I've seen it done.
The only opportunity you throw bag has to melt is in a Z-drag situation, but by setting up your system properly this can be eliminated completely. Also keeping the rope wet will also help. What is more likely to happen is that your spectra/nylon/dyneema sling will burn through from not using it properly. i.e. whem you wrap a sling around a tree do you make sure the sling is not overlapping?? If you have spectra on spectra and there is movement in the system you get friction and hey presto your spectra sling melts. It can take as little a one second to happen and once it starts there is no stopping it.
The key is to know the limitations of your equipment. How many people know that a larks foot/girth hitch is the weekest knot you can use. It reduces the strength of you sling from 22KN down to around 6KN. And when a larks foot is not tied properly you not only have a super weak knot, but you also have spectra on spectra & friction. Recipe for disaster.
Here endith the lesson!!
On throw bags as said a spectra is the way forward
The only opportunity you throw bag has to melt is in a Z-drag situation, but by setting up your system properly this can be eliminated completely. Also keeping the rope wet will also help. What is more likely to happen is that your spectra/nylon/dyneema sling will burn through from not using it properly. i.e. whem you wrap a sling around a tree do you make sure the sling is not overlapping?? If you have spectra on spectra and there is movement in the system you get friction and hey presto your spectra sling melts. It can take as little a one second to happen and once it starts there is no stopping it.
The key is to know the limitations of your equipment. How many people know that a larks foot/girth hitch is the weekest knot you can use. It reduces the strength of you sling from 22KN down to around 6KN. And when a larks foot is not tied properly you not only have a super weak knot, but you also have spectra on spectra & friction. Recipe for disaster.
Here endith the lesson!!
On throw bags as said a spectra is the way forward
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Ropes
Great topic. Great Question to start off the season.
Everyone above gave correct info. Spectra cord (5/16) is rated at 2500 lbs and poly cord (5/16) is rated at 1000 lbs. You'll also pay almost twice as much for Spectra.
As far as Spectra melting in a swift water application, I personally feel that would never happen. Just too many things working in the wrong direction to make alot of heat. I used to be a climbing instructor before I started working in kayaking. In climbing I've seen Spectra damaged (never close to failure), but in all my years in boating I've never seen a rope damaged to the same degree. Something to keep in mind, but nothing to dicourage you from using or buying it.
I like Mongo Products. They don't waste time with fashion and looks. They are built clean and simple. When you check out the prices and the designs you might be thinking that you can just build your own. But, you won't save much cash and you'll never be wondering if your Mongo product was put together correctly or not. We have one (chest harness) in our school program, and it works great.
To answer your question... Yes, you should get and use a throw bag. The good ones are the ones you have with you when it's needed. Yes, poly and Spectra will pull a swimmer from the water. And, Spectra is stronger.
Great topic. Great Question to start off the season.
Everyone above gave correct info. Spectra cord (5/16) is rated at 2500 lbs and poly cord (5/16) is rated at 1000 lbs. You'll also pay almost twice as much for Spectra.
As far as Spectra melting in a swift water application, I personally feel that would never happen. Just too many things working in the wrong direction to make alot of heat. I used to be a climbing instructor before I started working in kayaking. In climbing I've seen Spectra damaged (never close to failure), but in all my years in boating I've never seen a rope damaged to the same degree. Something to keep in mind, but nothing to dicourage you from using or buying it.
I like Mongo Products. They don't waste time with fashion and looks. They are built clean and simple. When you check out the prices and the designs you might be thinking that you can just build your own. But, you won't save much cash and you'll never be wondering if your Mongo product was put together correctly or not. We have one (chest harness) in our school program, and it works great.
To answer your question... Yes, you should get and use a throw bag. The good ones are the ones you have with you when it's needed. Yes, poly and Spectra will pull a swimmer from the water. And, Spectra is stronger.
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Good point about buying a throw bag that you wear around your waist that goes with you everywhere. With all the different types of whitewater, I own way too many boats. I used to always keep my throw bag clipped in my boat, but I have found myself grabbing a different boat and showing up at the put in only to realize that my throw bag was at home in the boat I used the previous day. Luckily this only happend on a play river, but $#!T happens anywhre. This brings up another topic:
How many people only where socks, beer coozies on your feet, or nothing at all (on your feet) in your playboat. Recall the pics from the worlds opening ceremonies:
http://www.kayakmind.com/2005_World_Freestyle_Kayak_Championships_dispatches
and check out the picture of "Jimmy Blakeney walking back to the wave." He isn't wearing anything on his feet. Playboats are cramped, but whenever I take off my normal booties and just wear socks in my playboat, I feel guilty. I feel that it is my duty to be as prepared as possible to hop out of my boat and assist my buddy as quick as possible. I would be so pissed at myself if I had to jump out of my playboat to help my buddy only to find that I am delayed because I need to run across a bunch of jagged rocks to help my bud and I have no shoes....just a thought.
How many people only where socks, beer coozies on your feet, or nothing at all (on your feet) in your playboat. Recall the pics from the worlds opening ceremonies:
http://www.kayakmind.com/2005_World_Freestyle_Kayak_Championships_dispatches
and check out the picture of "Jimmy Blakeney walking back to the wave." He isn't wearing anything on his feet. Playboats are cramped, but whenever I take off my normal booties and just wear socks in my playboat, I feel guilty. I feel that it is my duty to be as prepared as possible to hop out of my boat and assist my buddy as quick as possible. I would be so pissed at myself if I had to jump out of my playboat to help my buddy only to find that I am delayed because I need to run across a bunch of jagged rocks to help my bud and I have no shoes....just a thought.
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Has anyone used the Astral throw bags that fit in their PFD front pocket? http://astralbuoyancy.com/lowband/rope.html. I'm considering getting their rescue vest, and was wondering about their throw bag.
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pulleys are a crucial part of mechanical advantage and reducing friction on the rope. i always have two small prusik minding pulleys, two lockers, and two cordilettes for prusiks, and one or two throwbags with me when i guide, even though we have a wrap kit in the sweep gear.but that is on the big rubber river couches....minimizing weight is primary when paddling, but petzl makes small @ $20 pulleys, and the smaller lockers are the cheapest as well.
can you make a z drag safely with just caribiners or is that just a figment of my imagination?? - anyone know?
**time to do swiftwater again!!!**
can you make a z drag safely with just caribiners or is that just a figment of my imagination?? - anyone know?
**time to do swiftwater again!!!**
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