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I didn't confirm any of this but the references are below if you feel so inclined, just a cut and paste from a forward...



State Avg. IQ 2004
1 Connecticut 113 Kerry
2 Massachusetts 111 Kerry
3 New Jersey 111 Kerry
4 New York 109 Kerry
5 Rhode Island 107 Kerry
6 Hawaii 106 Kerry
7 Maryland 105 Kerry
8 New Hampshire 105 Kerry
9 Illinois 104 Kerry
10 Delaware 103 Kerry
11 Minnesota 102 Kerry
12 Vermont 102 Kerry
13 Washington 102 Kerry
14 California 101 Kerry
15 Pennsylvania 101 Kerry
16 Maine 100 Kerry
17 Virginia 100 Bush
18 Wisconsin 100 Kerry
19 Colorado 99 Bush
20 Iowa 99 Bush
21 Michigan 99 Kerry
22 Nevada 99 Bush
23 Ohio 99 Bush
24 Oregon 99 Kerry
25 Alaska 98 Bush
26 Florida 98 Bush
27 Missouri 98 Bush
28 Kansas 96 Bush
29 Nebraska 95 Bush
30 Arizona 94 Bush
31 Indiana 94 Bush
32 Tennessee 94 Bush
33 North Carolina 93 Bush
34 West Virginia 93 Bush
35 Arkansas 92 Bush
36 Georgia 92 Bush
37 Kentucky 92 Bush
38 New Mexico 92 Bush
39 North Dakota 92 Bush
40 Texas 92 Bush
41 Alabama 90 Bush
42 Louisiana 90 Bush
43 Montana 90 Bush
44 Oklahoma 90 Bush
45 South Dakota 90 Bush
46 South Carolina 89 Bush
47 Wyoming 89 Bush
48 Idaho 87 Bush
49 Utah 87 Bush
50 Mississippi 85 Bush



The IQ numbers were originally attributed to the book "IQ and the Wealth of
Nations", though they do not appear in the current edition. The tests and
data were administered via the Raven's APT, and the The Test Agency, one of the
UK's leading publishers and distributors of psychometric tests. This data has
been published in the Economist and the St. Petersburg Times, though this does
not mean it should be taken as fact. Though the data does correlate somewhat to
IQ of students per state based on SAT/ACT data, though this would be biased for
those that had completed a high school education. Someone has also taken 2000
census data on percentage of state residents that have earned a college degree
and used that to compare the voting in the 2000 election, it's funny, but that
seems to correlate as well.
 

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that information is quite telling. that is why we appear to be an elitiest group. so since there are far fewer college educated americans than are not, how dow succede at communicating our well thought out and throughly analyzied ideas? this is OUR problem. until we figure this out i am afraid that this nation will continue down its current path. A republican will win again in four years. i just hope that person is not as misguided as bush. i am not trying to be demeaning here, but i would like to think it could be accomplished with out having to sound like bush. its funny the rights accuse of being extreme, but at the end of the day, it was our camp that lacked the emotion. we appealed only to reason, which was our failure because the majority of this nation opperates on instinct and emotion. we have all always been tought that. remember in school, when we were filling out those scan tron tests?, "if you are not sure of the correct answer go with your first instinct". well now the reprocussions of such a practice has become deadly. open your test booklets please and correctly decide the direction of american foreign policy. you have two hours to do so. do not leave any questions blank, if all else fails choose the answer C. thats how the majority of americans have been trained to make decisions.

we're screwed
 

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esp- I couldn't agree with you more, I'm glad someone was able to put all that into some words that make sense. It really comes down to people not being able to (or maybe they just don't even consider doing it) analyzing all the stuff they hear on tv and the radio and from other people. If everyone would take a minute to analyze everything that the Bush administration says, I don't see how he could poosibly come out ahead of Kerry. Our entire country needs to start taking everything they hear from Bush with a big old grain of salt.

Ben
 

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Well, I don't know what this has to do with the forum, since there is great kayaking in all of the above, if one is smart enough to find it. Of course all kayaking is great, compared to boob-tubing!

The data reminds me of the story of the airplane that was going to crash, with one to few parachutes for all of the passengers. One of the passengers insisted that he should be allowed to jump, because he was the smartest man in the world. So grabbing a bag, he jumped out.

The remaining passengers were reassured when it was determined that the smartest man in the world jumped out having grabbed the backpack of a hippie that was on the plane.

Reminds me also, why some kayak and some canoe- Kayakers kayak, because they don't have to determine which end of the paddle goes in the water. I tried canoeing one time, and found it very confusing. The paddle was not the main problem however. The biggest problem was I could not tell which was the bow, and which the stern. Could not tell whether I was coming or going, and I have been told that I have above avg. IQ. So, shows what IQ proves! At least kayaks have seats so that you can tell where you are going, and where you have been, if you gets turned around.

So I guess if it tells anything, it says it takes a WW kayaker to post this sort of data, and think that it is significant dribble! Comes from banging the head full of brains on the boney stream bottom once to many times!

Good thing the future of this country is not based on IQ! or those who think they got it, and the others don't!


Peace, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!
 

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just thinking out loud here...

when our nation was in its infant stages, life and communications were much different. the electoral college was set up to not reflect the popular vote. in fact there was no such thing. if any body could come up with the numbers i would be interested to hear them... so i am guessing here... given that we were a rural agrarian nation with little more than guys on horses as a means of communications, i figure we had very low voter turn out, and i cant imagine how ill informed the voting public must have been. for some, i can imagine the treck to the polls taking days. so i am guessing it was mostly the well educated who voted and the electoral college was devised to account for the few 'blip' states who had a good voter turn out. the electoral college was designed to favor the educated vote. just look at the red and blue on the map. pretty damn close in electoral votes considering the see of red and the 3.5 million gap between bush and kerry.

my point is our ability to communicate has far out paced our ability to educate. where previously only the educated that lived at the city centers who had access to the polls, we now have given access to everyone, which is how it should be. but a vote should be a commitment and a privlidge, not just a right. make the commitment to make an informed educated decesion. we, all of us have herd stories from our friends and co-workers saying, "i didnt even know who i was going to vote for till i started to fill out the ballot" to take that point a little further, i too was guilty, i didnt know any of those judges we voted yes and no on. university of colorado board, that was an uneducated decision on my part.

hopefully we can start to become more proactive and less reactive.

sorry for the ramblings
 

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KnesisKnosis,

i think you mised part of my point, those same tests that are used to determine iqs are quite faulted as we all know. those tests are designed to tell us who are good guessers. as far as the iq numbers there is nothing definitive about them as was stated at the bottom of the original post. there is some correlation that may give us some insight to help us figure out these voting trends. dont be typical by writing off the analysis of those numbers.
 

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esp,

I doubt that I am being typical. I just know that stats lie, and those who manipulate them have ulterior motives. To make a correlation between certain observable facts, and the outcome of a political debate, is the fools playground. If you want to play, have fun, but don't confuse facts with fantasy. Fantasy is much to much fun to be confused with the facts.

As for myself I prefer to play in the waterpark! Sometimes I am discovering the source of the Nile, and other times playing like Jacque Cousteau, upside down in my submersible. But the fact is I am still in some runoff puddle in Colorado. The fantasy is much more enjoyable.

Again I am glad that we are able to select a president, not because he is suave, debonaire, and an elite intellectual, but because he puts his pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us. And unlike a previous president, knows how to keep them on! That's the moral value part that no one seems to be talking about, but which I expect made the difference to the average American. We were not ready for another Jiggelowe!

Peace, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!
 

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I notice some mention of the end of Bush in 4 years. I think you might be overlooking one thing. It would appear that they are grooming Jeb Bush to run in 4 years.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Good one KnesisKnosis, you got me good. You took a jab, let me try to reply, all in good fun of course...

Your well thought out and applicable correlation between canoeing/kayaking and the average IQ of the 50 states really put me in my place. I would respond to it but it really made no sense. And the equally relevant airplane bit reminded me of the 3rd grade when I first heard it. Did that come from your fool's playground?

Whoever told you that you had an above average IQ was just being nice.

As for stats, yes they can be manipulated. But ignoring all statistics, facts, or relevant data is absurd. Would you prefer to make all decisions based off of intuition? Or how about letting the Bible influence your decisions, there aren't any contraditions in there! I guess it has worked for W who has repeatedly said just that when describing himself, he has a good "gut feeling."

I made no analysis of the data that started this post, just listed it. What it means is up for debate, but from your defensive posture I believe you came to the same conclusion as the rest of us.

Yes I am biased on this election (because I was paying attention), and have only posted information bashing Bush. The Republicans in the audience are free to do the same but you may notice a lack of "facts" in their posts. Instead, they are replaced with subjective opinions and values. The only respectable response I've heard from someone who voted Republican was for financial reasons and he admitted feeling guilty for doing so.

Is it a coincidence that the state most affected by terrorism voted Blue? No, they understand the situation better than the toothless, mullet totin', sister f_ckin', hill jacks in all those Red states who think we should kick every Arab's ass whether they were involved in 911 or not and think that a gay marriage ban is a hot presidential topic.

Making correlations is what makes us an intelligent species. The IQ and electorate results does have too many variables to be cut and dry. Some correlations are better than others. Roads have cars, cars go fast, stand in road, you might get hit. Deer and Cows don't get that correlation. Without trying to make correlations and make sense of the world we live in makes you cattle. My playground is full of scientists and engineers. Not sure what playground you are in but I'm pretty sure you took a short bus to get there.

-Darren
 

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Sorry ESP but I read something a while back that stated that is why the brothers ran for Governor in different states. Using their fathers coattails to help get elected then running for president at a latter date. I had heard that Jeb was going to run in 08 no matter what happened in this election. I suggest you start thinking of something more pleasant like abundant runoff in the spring, what new boat you will buy, etc. I have been surfing for a new boat to ease my mind.
 

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thanks for bringing me back, i can take solace, in the coming of 4 new drops at our amazing playpark here in rebublicanville(BV). my one last problem is the new boat. my size 14s are killing me.

peace!
 

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Hey guys.

Deep Six the beta about the IQ's - seriously.
Look, I despise W., but the numbers are bogus.
The mention of that book was bogus, and the Economist and the St. Petersburg Times or whatever it was got burned by running those numbers.
Bad numbers.
I'm looking to try to find good ones, but I can't find current state IQ averages anywhere.
Yes - I believe that ignorant people bought W.'s propoganda and elected him - but this list of data doesn't prove it.
As for the guy who said it's good to have a president who puts his pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us, what the hell does that mean? Do you know anybody who jumps into them two legs at a time?
Of course you mean that Bush is a "regular guy" -- right? Well, that's ridiculous. He was the President's SON! He's been rich, and plugged into the powerful people of this country, since birth.
How regular do you think he is?
He's not regular, he's filthy rich and dangerously powerful.
But what he ISN'T is very intelligent. Listen to him speak when he's not reading a speech. It's pathetic - the man's a doorknob.
And personally, when it comes to THE LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD, why the heck would you want an average guy of average intelligence in that position?
Personally, I want a president to be vastly more intelligent than me and my paddling buddies - he's got a job I'll never be smart or motivated enough to do.
I don't want the average Joe being president, I want the fate of this nation in more capable hands, thanks.
I'll paddle with the average Joe, but can't we elect somebody a little smarter for the presidency?

Whatever. Four more years of environmental destruction (hello, bad for paddlers AND NRA-loving hunters - yes, W. is bad for hunters because his policies pollute the rivers and tear up the forests. He's an oil man, not a hunter).
Four more years of our credibility in the global community going down the tubes - for more years of dissolving alliances and greater hatred of America worldwide (Oh, and the more people that hate us, the more people that bomb us, right?)
Four more years of Idealogical crap.
B.S.

Whatever. I'm done with it.
Let's go paddle.
 

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Time to Get Religion
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

If Democrats want to know how to win again, they have a model. It's the British Labor Party.

When I studied in England in the early 1980's, the British Labor Party seemed as quaint and eccentric as Oxford itself, where we wore gowns for exams and some dons addressed the rare female student as "sir." Labor was caught in its own echo chamber of militant unions and anti-American activists, and it so repulsed voters that it seemed it might wither away entirely.

Then Tony Blair and another M.P., Gordon Brown, dragged the party away from socialism, unions, nuclear disarmament and anti-Americanism. Together they created "New Labor," which aimed for the center and aggressively courted Middle Britain instead of trying to scare it. The result is that since 1997, Mr. Blair and Labor have utterly dominated Britain.

The Democrats need a similar rebranding. But the risk is that the party will blame others for its failures - or, worse, blame the American people for their stupidity (as London's Daily Mirror screamed in a Page 1 headline this week: "How can 59,054,087 people be so DUMB?").

As moderates from the heartland, like Tom Daschle, are picked off by the Republicans, the party's image risks being defined even more by bicoastal, tree-hugging, gun-banning, French-speaking, Bordeau-sipping, Times-toting liberals, whose solution is to veer left and galvanize the base. But firing up the base means turning off swing voters. Gov. Mike Johanns, a Nebraska Republican, told me that each time Michael Moore spoke up for John Kerry, Mr. Kerry's support in Nebraska took a dive.

Mobilizing the base would mean nominating Hillary Rodham Clinton in 2008 and losing yet again. (Mrs. Clinton has actually undertaken just the kind of makeover that I'm talking about: in the Senate, she's been cooperative, mellow and moderate, winning over upstate New Yorkers. She could do the same in the heartland ... if she had 50 years.)

So Democrats need to give a more prominent voice to Middle American, wheat-hugging, gun-shooting, Spanish-speaking, beer-guzzling, Bible-toting centrists. (They can tote The Times, too, in a plain brown wrapper.) For a nominee who could lead the Democrats to victory, think of John Edwards, Bill Richardson or Evan Bayh, or anyone who knows the difference between straw and hay.

I wish that winning were just a matter of presentation. But it's not. It involves compromising on principles. Bill Clinton won his credibility in the heartland partly by going home to Little Rock during the 1992 campaign to preside over the execution of a mentally disabled convict named Ricky Ray Rector.

There was a moral ambiguity about Mr. Clinton's clambering to power over Mr. Rector's corpse. But unless Democrats compromise, they'll be proud and true and losers.

So what do the Democrats need to do? Here are four suggestions:

• Don't be afraid of religion. Offer government support for faith-based programs to aid the homeless, prisoners and AIDS victims. And argue theology with Republicans: there's much more biblical ammunition to support liberals than conservatives.

• Pick battles of substance, not symbolism. The battle over Georgia's Confederate flag cost Roy Barnes his governorship and perhaps Max Cleland his Senate seat, but didn't help one working mother or jobless worker. It was a gift to Republicans.

• Accept that today, gun control is a nonstarter. Instead of trying to curb guns, try to reduce gun deaths through better rules on licensing and storage, and on safety devices like trigger locks.

• Hold your nose and work with President Bush as much as you can because it's lethal to be portrayed as obstructionists. Sure, block another Clarence Thomas, but here's a rule of thumb: if an otherwise qualified Supreme Court nominee would turn the clock back 10 years, approve; back 25 years, vote no; back a half-century, filibuster.

"The first thing we have to do is shake the image of us as the obstructionist party," notes Senator Ben Nelson of Nebraska, who manages to thrive as a Democrat in the red sea. He says Democrats must show a willingness to compromise, to get things done, to defer to local sensibilities. "We have to show the American people," he says, "that Democrats aren't going to take away your guns, aren't going to take away your flags."

Rethinking the Democratic Party will be wrenching. But just ask Tony Blair - it's not as wrenching as sliding into irrelevance.
 

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Livingston and Id725,

No offense taken, no offense meant, just having fun, of course at the expense of them "Loser" Dems (Thankyou Arnold)! And like Kerry said, we all wake up the next day, and we are still all Americans! Ain't it great!

"I made no analysis of the data that started this post, just listed it. What it means is up for debate, but from your defensive posture I believe you came to the same conclusion as the rest of us. "

Now on to the discussion -you acknowledge that you did not analyze the data, and that what it means is up for debate. Well I did not analyze it either, and did not come to any particular conclusion except that implied by the original compiler. I do not feel the need to defend anything, or anyone. I was just poking fun at the foolishness of this thread, in this forum, and those presenting pseudo-data, and trying to imply some startling revelation, and their ability to analyze it. I never made that claim, but you did, so the ball is in your court, to analyze it, or back off!


"Yes I am biased on this election (because I was paying attention), and have only posted information bashing Bush. The Republicans in the audience are free to do the same but you may notice a lack of "facts" in their posts. Instead, they are replaced with subjective opinions and values. The only respectable response I've heard from someone who voted Republican was for financial reasons and he admitted feeling guilty for doing so. "

I am glad to meet someone who acknowledges their bias, though to imply that those of us who are not on your side are not paying attention, is shortsighted at best. The Dems lost, by a significant margin, and unless they are willing to find out were the majority is on the major issues, they will not win, where it takes a majority to win. So how can they pretend that they are paying attention. They only deceive themselves, which is fine with me because they will continue to lose. They say they hear, but the American voter has spoken, and the Dems squeal their protests.

If you really believe in your issues, stop deceiving yourselves. I love fresh air, and clean water. I think that it is good to take care of the feeble and ill with good health care. I would love to look forward to a carefree retirement. I hate the war in Iraq, and that our soldiers are over there fighting and dieing. I would love to bring them home. I would love to live with safe harbors and safe skies. Where everyone is employed, and there are at least two kayaks on every roof rack!

But if these carrots are just held out in front of us to buy votes, with no substance where is the benefit. We can have beautiful pipe dreams and Plans to save everyone. Sounds good. But I heard no hard plans how this was going to be brought about, except to raise taxes on the rich upper class.

I would love to move from the middle class to the upper class, but not to pay higher taxes. Where is the motivation for me to start a profitable corporation that employs many, with an above minimum pay scale, health and retirement benefits. Vacation time to enjoy the fresh air and clean water. I'll just stay here and let Uncle Sam take care of me with all his programs and Plans.

Of course the programs will dry up when there are no more rich to tax, so then he will tax me. Maybe not with the IRS, but with inflation brought on by all the government programs. My dollars will buy less, and I won't be able to afford the roof rack, besides the two kayaks on top. I've been there before during JFK, LBJ, Carter, and Clinton! And I certainly did not want another JFK!

But then on the other hand, I will be guaranteed all the health care I need and can handle in second rate health facilities. With a shortage of doctors, because the potential doctors decided to stand in the dole lines with me to get their hand outs, instead of being rich doctors being taxed by the benevolent Uncle.

Now, am I a Conservative? You bet your biffy!! Have I quoted any facts, or have I been presenting my subjective opinion and values? Gut-feeling and intuitive? You bet!!! I lived through liberal eras and programs, and I saw the results, I don't need a whole lot of fact checking when I am getting a whole lot of gut-checking!. I also see what President Bush is doing, and there is nothing subjective or wishful about his Plan. He went out and did it, that's fact. Now you may not like what he has done, but that is a different matter. I am not here to bash Dems because I am a Republican, and they acknowledge their propensity to bash.

Personally I prefer to fight the terrorist, in their back yard. If there were not WMDs, great, otherwise we could have lost many more of our soldiers. Would 30 or 40,000 been acceptable battlefield losses if they had used WMD. We went there to depose a leader who had killed million of his own people, and was a continuing threat to that region and to world peace, and that is expensive. Was there a breakdown in intelligence, obviously, but that does not mean we scrap the whole operation. We just found out what we did not know and what we needed to know.

The basic plan is still the same, to pursue the terrorist, who are nothing more than international criminals, willing to kill their own as quickly as a US soldier. Allow them no sanctuary, and develop a place where other civilized free people can live in peace and security.

Are there benefits to us, of course? Their oil works as good in our technology as Saudi, Russian, or Mexico, or Alaska. We drive our cars, our 4x4s in the mountains to some remote launch site, to say nothing of that new play boat and all our other toys made of petrochemicals. Even the computers that we message on demand hugh supplies of oil to power manufacture, deliver, and operate. Should we go back to the stone age to protect the environment? I doubt any want that.

So we compromise, and find ways to work together to protect the environment as much as possible, and still get to play with our petrochemical toys. I have yet to see a WW kayaker floating down the river in a bark canoe or log raft! That spiffy GPS that works off a satellite, manufactured and launched with great energy, and many jobs.

Have jobs been lost, certainly? Have you seen any coopers recently, or weavers, or whatever. Technologies change, and change quickly in our world. We live in a complex world, where we all depend on each other. Do we outsource jobs? Yes, and yet we still ship more goods out than most of the other countries combined. Certainly there are problems, it just depends on whose ox is getting gored at any particular time.

I do not make apologies for the financial reasons for which I vote, nor do I feel guilty. I want to be a rich man, and then I will not need the government programs. I can take care of my family health and retirement. Nothing to feel guilty about. I even am able to help others as I choose. Just get the government off my back.

"Is it a coincidence that the state most affected by terrorism voted Blue? No, they understand the situation better than the toothless, mullet totin', sister f_ckin', hill jacks in all those Red states who think we should kick every Arab's ass whether they were involved in 911 or not and think that a gay marriage ban is a hot presidential topic. "

Again, for someone who is paying attention, you miss the point. That is not a nice or polite (politic) way to talk about the majority, if you really expect to win them to your way of thinking. In addition I believe, you have not truly identified why those in NY went blue. Not that I am going to tell you, but instead, I am going to work on turning the blue, red.

Nore do I think, that we should kick every Arab ass, I have good friends who are Arab. On the other hand neither do I think that we should start kissing all the UN ass, especially French and German, who would not support our Irag efforts, but instead were cutting special deals under the table, while mouthing UN platitudes. Kerry, for someone concerned about outsourcing, sure seemed willing to go to his cadre of Liberal approved UN outsources.

"Making correlations is what makes us an intelligent species. The IQ and electorate results does have too many variables to be cut and dry. Some correlations are better than others. Roads have cars, cars go fast, stand in road, you might get hit. Deer and Cows don't get that correlation. Without trying to make correlations and make sense of the world we live in makes you cattle. My playground is full of scientists and engineers. Not sure what playground you are in but I'm pretty sure you took a short bus to get there. "

And in this case, the Dems got run over by the Convoy, the majority, and it sounds to me like some of them have yet to figure out what happened! Who is not making the correct correlation?

"Yes - I believe that ignorant people bought W.'s propaganda and elected him - but this list of data doesn't prove it. "

I agree that there are plenty of ignorant, uneducated people to go around, and some voted for President Bush, but do not conclude that only such voted for Him, or you will certainly isolate yourself in a Liberal utopia of intellectual elitism.

"As for the guy who said it's good to have a president who puts his pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us, what the hell does that mean? Do you know anybody who jumps into them two legs at a time?
Of course you mean that Bush is a "regular guy" -- right? Well, that's ridiculous. He was the President's SON! He's been rich, and plugged into the powerful people of this country, since birth.
How regular do you think he is?
He's not regular, he's filthy rich and dangerously powerful."

He is a regular guy, as all of us are regular guys- he is an American! That is the only requirement for Presidency. We don't have Gods or Kings. Regarding the "monarchy" all you have to do is elect someone else. There is no entitlement to the Presidency because you are a Bush, a Clinton, Gore, or your initials are JFK. In fact the chances of successive terms of Bushes is completely against the odds. You would have a better chance of being the next President than Jeb!

As far as being rich, certainly you have heard of the Heinz fortune.

"But what he ISN'T is very intelligent. Listen to him speak when he's not reading a speech. It's pathetic - the man's a doorknob.
And personally, when it comes to THE LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD, why the heck would you want an average guy of average intelligence in that position?
Personally, I want a president to be vastly more intelligent than me and my paddling buddies - he's got a job I'll never be smart or motivated enough to do.
I don't want the average Joe being president, I want the fate of this nation in more capable hands, thanks.
I'll paddle with the average Joe, but can't we elect somebody a little smarter for the presidency? "

He would be the first to admit, that speaking is not his forte, but then neither is mountain biking. And I doubt that he is a much better paddler. His strength is that he is a good politician, at least better than JFK, or so the polls would indicate. As to intelligence, one last story:

Einstein, was ask how many feet in a mile, and he did not know. When questioned how this could be, he said, " I don't know, but I know a book that will tell me!"

It seems to me that President Bush is willing to share the limelight with a lot of others who know the details, and he is willing to bear the responsibility of his position. I don't see him trying to micro manage the battlefield in Iraq, or the Dept of whatever here. He has included minorities, women, life time bureaucrats and diplomats. And lots of regular folk who believe in and are willing to work very hard for his programs. Besides, lowly doorknobs are good for opening the largest doors to access where people live.

"Whatever. Four more years of environmental destruction (hello, bad for paddlers AND NRA-loving hunters - yes, W. is bad for hunters because his policies pollute the rivers and tear up the forests. He's an oil man, not a hunter).
Four more years of our credibility in the global community going down the tubes - for more years of dissolving alliances and greater hatred of America worldwide (Oh, and the more people that hate us, the more people that bomb us, right?)
Four more years of Idealogical crap."

Yes, there are four more years!
There are always four more years! Get use to it, and get somebody on your side who we the majority can vote for, and you will get your four years to save the world, the rivers, the rain forest. And I"ll enjoy to good life with you. So Paddle on! Or should I say sail on with all this hot air!

Peace, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!
 

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Thank you Cstork, But don't tell them to much what to do, they may do it!

But then again, from what I have been hearing the last couple of days is a bunch of finger pointing, using various fingers. So they may yet self-implode!

Peace, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!
 

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blutzski,

I was thinking the same thing about the whole thread, but then I admitted having trouble with the canoe and canoe paddle. That's why I like kayaking, you don't have to worry about which end of the paddle to put in the water, which way is forward or backward, or up and down.

You don't have to be brilliant to be a kayaker or voter, that is why we all qualify. I love America!

Thanks, Tinkerntom, aka KnesisKnosis, Life, Live it!
 
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