I cast my ballot for the Dagger Kingpin. All Daggers are leaky but I counted the factory-drilled holes the other day: 18. The boys at Dagger must be more into putt-putt golf than serious whitewater kayaking.
Interesting. I have recently demoed a few Dagger boats and they were the leakiest boats I'd ever been in. I figured it was because they were rental boats and maybe the screws were loose. But maybe it is Dagger in general?
i took a swim in a sketchy spot (for me) on a small local creek (class 4 and i didn't have a creek boat),that i have done more successfully quite a few times, and as i was exiting, i guess i wanted out pretty bad, cuz i broke the plastic piece on my backband, and apparently pushed on the floor with my feet, hard enough to push the floor past the screws through the bottom of of the boat that hold the 'd-bone' subframe in place. (nice design, putting screwholes in the bottom of the boat :?). so now i have a juice with a hole in the floor, and i have been too busy to see if they'll hook me with a new boat.
on the bright side of things though, i did get a used creek boat,instead of slacking....
so yeah, another vote for dagger.
and what's up with the plastic? my juice, and my old outlaw,(i do like the shapes, and esp. the outlaw, was very comfortable for a stocky person) both were oilcanned pretty drastically, and the plastic doesn't seem very strong on the newer (last couple of years)dagger boats.a friends old infrared though, is really stiff (and heavy) -more like a pyrana -which i can stand on upside down, and it barely flexes.... are the new daggers different plastic than the older ones, or just is there just less of it?
i think i'd rather have a durable boat that is a little heavier.....
That's crazy about ripping out your D-Bone. Basicaly, putting holes in the bottom of a water craft is downright idiotic. I posed the leakiest boat question to another paddler and he had heard that Dagger had hired a guy who's sole purpose was to figure out how to make Daggers less leaky. Dagger's hull shapes and designs are kick ass but the outfitting is way overdone. Another thing, I would say Dagger is runner up for weakest plastic (after Pyranah). My Kingpin only had about thirty days on it when it began to oil-pan. I do like to seal launch but no more than the next guy. For my next boat I'll be seriously looking at the Jackson All Star and perhaps Blisstick.
Jacksons are cheaper than most, but you can get a Blisstick for @ $830.00 delivered to you from NZ through a rep. they aren't in shops mostly to protest the exponential mark-ups and to avoid price wars with 'megacorporations' like watermark that are benefiting from keepng the prices up. (i think). the regional reps are on goatertalk and on mb's grear swap most likely. i don't work for them or anything.... their boats are made in an old wool shearing shack or something in the mountains of NZ.
i'd say Jackson, LL, Blisstick, and pyrana (sort of) are the little independent companies...definetely worth supporting.
Blisstick doesn't have a river/play design out- the RAD 95 is quite an aggresive play design- more like a big wheel, really short stern, so for me i kind of want a design more like an outlaw or a juice, and daggers seem to fit me better than other boats. whichleads back to the original problem. kind of like why i end up getting my big bags of dog food from wal mart. it sucks to support the richest corporation in the world, but it is cheaper. :roll: dammit. and my moral issue only affects my wallet.
BTW, why do you say pyrana's plastic sucks? are they brittle or something? i know they should't be left out in the sun... but since i just got an old micro240, i am curious.
My Dagger CFS leaks like a sieve. I've never had a boat that leaks this bad. After running a few drops it always has a couple inches of water in it. I'm going to have to fill it up with water and see where it's leaking. I second the oilcanning problem with daggers also. The bottom of it looks like a bowl. On the plus side. I don't hear about too many daggers cracking. Maybe cause there plastic is so soft it just gives instead of cracking. Abron be carefull with your 240 (or better yet sell it before it cracks). My friends have cracked more of those things than all other boats combined.
just a note on the bliss stick stuff..... they are not in stores not becuase of markup but because so many stores stopped carrying them. They had a batch of bad boats a couple of years ago. When people started trying to warranty them the owners could not get a hold of the reps so the owners were left with dealing with angry customers. SO it may sound noble and all to have reps instead of going through shops and such, but really it is not. Besides dont the local shops need the support anyway. In someways arent the local shops kind of the backbone of the sport (organizing rodeos, demo days, clinics etc)
So who is going to invent a kayak bildge first? I am thinking a hose under a seat conected to a hand pump, small like a little water purifier.
I never really thought about the question too much until it was just brought up on the buzz. But yes I would definately vote Dagger as the leakiest boat. I used to paddle a G-Force 6.3 and I wouldnt ever be able to finish a run without dumping out the water. Also I had a horrible problem with the backband breaking on me. I then went to a wavesport ZG 54 and it was probably one of the better moves i made in boating.
Oh, yeah speaking of backbands, the backband on my two year old CFS just broke broke too. I spent sunday fixing the backband, sealing bolt holes and padding out the seat to get rid of the oilcan instead of boating. But I love how it boats.
The reason, I think, Dagger boats leak is because of the shape of the cockpit. Think about it, every screw would have to be pretty loose to take on as much water as we've all experienced, in such a short time. I always feel, especially in my "88", the water coming in arond the CP and falling on my thighs. The sides of the CP, to me seem too straight and dont stretch the skirt enough; result, not a good seal. The slots in the sides for the elastic don't help either.
If you paddle a Dagger boat, get the Palm RT Kevlar rand deck. The deck is bomb proof and the rand makes a better seal than shock cord with the cockpit rip. The water isn't leaking through the nuts unless they are loose.
I paddle the Kingpin and by the time I play one or two holes I am sitting in a bathtub of water. Love the boat and outfitting but F#$&*ng hate how much it leaks! Buy a sponge! Anyway, I did hear from the guys at Colorado Kayak that is is most likely the design in the cockpit. No skirt is designed to dip like the kingpin does near the hips. Check out the new Jackson boats. Simply outstanding, boarderline genius outfitting!
A forum community dedicated to whitewater kayaking, boating, and rafting enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about safety, routes, gear, models, styles, gear swaps, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more!