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Discussion Starter #41
Day 9: glass tape fillets on the bulkheads

61857


Sanded the rough spots this morning and added a flow coat. I'll start framing the decks this weekend.
 

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Beautiful work, and very inventive as well. The sole thing that has me wondering, is a true Briggs has the bulkheads in frames, and the boat is assembled around the frames. The further you go, the more it appears you're doing a stitch and glue boat, sort of, are you going to build frames around the bulkheads and such as a afterthought ?
 

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Discussion Starter #43
Not true Briggs, just inspired by his hull design. I attend the church of frozen snot. :)
 

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Having dealt with both, I echo Brad's distaste for the snot, it's a shade more work to build frames, but I can't imagine the damage I would have had last year if I hadn't had the frames..
 

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Discussion Starter #45
I have a 14' 2-seater on the drawing board. I should see about getting some POC and try my hand at a framed boat.

Honestly, in the long run it's probably easier to build frames than to glass everything.
 

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It's not hard, everything you need in the way of dimensions is on the lofting. You have a table saw, that's all you really need to make the angles and channels, you construct them right on the lofting table, after the first one the rest are easy. The big thing for me, no cure time. When I was in Brad's class, the snot really didn't come out until after the hull was built and it came time to seal the hatch gutters and deck, and that was minimal. What he calls "Pooky", Lifecaulk boat caulk, was used in the assembly everywhere, bow post, transom, floor to sides, all the bulkheads, granted the inside seams were filleted and glassed for strength, but past that all pooky
 

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Discussion Starter #47
@duct tape is building a framed dory after building Huerfano as a stitch and glue from foam core. I really do appreciate the process. Wish that turkey would post more build pics!!!

I've built 6 kayaks, 2 canoes, and 1.5 dories with fiberglass. It's what I know.
 

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Well, according to the site, he's last seen 3 months ago.. I don't have anything against stitch and glue, have a couple friends that have built boats that way, well you and Buck, both turned out fine craft, I just think the traditional Briggs design is stronger in all instances, and having beat a few holes in my boats ala Brad, "Build em, run em, wreck em fix em and run em again" theory... Just reread Fedarko's book again, very few Golden Runs even in those days..
 

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Love your projects!!

Who do you buy your cloth\epoxy from?
It'll be a while before I get into boat building, but I do wanna build new coolers for my raft frame this winter...

Thanks, Ben
 

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Discussion Starter #50 (Edited)
Well, according to the site, he's last seen 3 months ago.. I don't have anything against stitch and glue, have a couple friends that have built boats that way, well you and Buck, both turned out fine craft, I just think the traditional Briggs design is stronger in all instances, and having beat a few holes in my boats ala Brad, "Build em, run em, wreck em fix em and run em again" theory... Just reread Fedarko's book again, very few Golden Runs even in those days..
Kenton Grua's final boat Grand Canyon was cold molded with Kevlar, Rudi Petschek built glass-cored wood boats, and OARS newer fleet entries are all S&G. You can't churn out a S&G boat in two weeks, there must be a reason they take that much time up front.
I'm not saying that framed boats are only an anachronism, either...this is more like a hypalon vs PVC raft debate. Hypalon has been around a lot longer, and is still around, but PVC wasn't only a flash in the pan.

Anyhoo, this is a better discussion over a campfire and bourbon than on the interwebs.
Book of Faces is ugly enough right now that I'm staying out of e-debates and focusing on my build for my own sanity.

And it's about time for my annual reread of the Emerald Mile. I love the way Fedarko writes. Magic.


Love your projects!!
Who do you buy your cloth\epoxy from?
It'll be a while before I get into boat building, but I do wanna build new coolers for my raft frame this winter...

Thanks, Ben
Good question!

It pays to shop. There aren't all that many fiberglass manufacturers, but lots of stores retail glass. It's used heavily in the aerospace and other high tech industries, so QC is high, and you really can't go wrong with any of them. Only tip: don't buy raw glass ("in the griege"). You need it finished with volan or silane which helps the epoxy or polyester bond to the glass fibers. All the boatbuilding suppliers have the correct glass.

I bought most of my glass and epoxy for my early projects from Raka.

For Great Falls, I had epoxy left over from US Composites. It has an amber hue and some tendency to blush, but it is economical and is a very tough, resilient resin.
I bought the 1708 biaxial floor cloth from Fiberglass supply. https://shop.fiberglasssupply.com/Knit_Reinforcements-17_oz_X_50in_45_-45_Biax.html
The plain woven 6oz cloth was from Noah's marine (now $5.25 but was $4/ly when I bought it). Economy Fiberglass Cloth : Noahsmarine.com

I'm back to Raka epoxy for this project. Using their standard 127 resin, and a combo of 610 fast hardener (now) and 350 non-blush hardener which I'll use for the sides and deck glass. Raka wets the glass out nicer, and I'm liking the fast hardener better than the US C medium speed hardener for winter work.

There's a good discussion on the Whitewater Dories FB group right now and most people prefer Raka, Resin Research 2040, or the old school WEST System epoxy. A few people are using MAS Silvertip epoxy. West is thicker, doesn't wet the glass out as well, and is more brittle. The people who are using Resin Research 2040 like that it's tough and not brittle. It's somewhat expensive in small quantities, but very reasonable in boatbuilding quantities. I'm trading another guy for some Resin Research and am looking forward to comparing it to Raka. So...my sense is that people tend to stick with what they know. I don't think you can go wrong with Raka, Resin Research, or MAS, but I'd steer you away from West, because I think it's too expensive compared to the performance you can get from the other three.

With this and couple more boats on my horizon, I bought 3 rolls of glass on a pallet from Thayercraft.com. Best pricing and what he had available were 8oz plain weave and a 1208 biaxial with chopped mat layer that I'm using on the floor. 2/3 the price of what I've paid before but I had to buy enough for 3 boats. haha.
Steve's phone doesn't seem to be ringing through right now, so not sure if he's currently open for business or not.

there are a couple of good build threads on the internet for custom coolers:

You could also build custom dryboxes using similar methods.
 

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Discussion Starter #51
Friday morning I put fill coats on the fillets.
61916


Day 10:
This will be the new sheer (gunnel) line. 1.5" lower at the center of the boat. I think it's purty.
61917


cutting decks. Stern deck. I will sit on this section of deck and there will be a hatch behind me. I measure the width at the front of the deck, the back of the deck, then take a batten to determine how much convex curve there is between the two. Scribe that on the plywood, and then cut about 1/4" outside the line. I then use an oscillating multitool to trim the high spots and "sneak up on" the line.
61918


Then did the same for the aft deck. Didn't get a pic of the frame at the back of the center deck, will add one later.
Front bulkhead was a tad low so I added two more strips. Will glass them in with the deck.
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And the foredeck.
61920


61921


Originally planned on an 18”x32” stern hatch. Would have been a 16”x30” opening. Too small for a 65qt cooler. Bumped it up to 20”x33”.
61922

Front hatch will remain 18”x32"
 

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Discussion Starter #52
Day 11, Sunday January 10. yesterday was a crazy productive day. Worked 9 solid hours.

Hatch frames and lower lip support. Laminating everything rather than cutting from solid stock. Stronger laminated, plus using up scrap and making less sawdust.

I start by drilling a hole in the corner of where I'd marked the hatch on the deck to transfer that point to the bottom side of the deck.

First piece is a 3/4" tall x 1" wide "riser". Cut a piece to span across the width of the boat, miter the corners to match the side panels. Temp screw that to the deck. then two 18" or 20" long pieces for the risers at the sides of the hatch opening.

Then a 2.5" wide x 1/2" thick "platform" that the hatch lips will rest on. This will all get glassed on the bottom for tensile strength.

I'll then add the 3/4" chamfer "ramps" on the outsides of the frame to make it easy for the fiberglass to wrap up and over.
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Working out the oarsmans footwell and side bulkheads. Using up meranti ply scrap from the big boat. I have enough material from my initial cutting plan...but those pieces are also large enough to be two more side panels for another small boat!!
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And the spare oar slot.
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Glassing the underside of the decks. I trim the glass 1” larger in all dimensions, fold the glass over, wet out half the wood, fold the glass over to expose the other half, wet that out, then spread epoxy in all the glass. Once the glass is wet out, it will appear hazy as there is air between the fibers and weave. Mix more epoxy, squeegee it on and make the glass shiny again. Within 8-12 hours (so the epoxy will chemically bond before it is fully cured) squeegee on at least one flow coat to fully fill the weave.
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Plain weave glass is all but transparent when wet out.

Glass on the underside of the decks provides tensile strength...so I can sit/step/sleep on them.
61927

They got a quick fill coat this morning.

52sf of 8oz glass took right around 50oz of epoxy including what was used as glue to join the hatch risers and plates.
 

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Impressive pace. Appreciate the detailed pictures and explanation of the hatch frames. This a fun follow- great content!
 

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Discussion Starter #54
Impressive pace. Appreciate the detailed pictures and explanation of the hatch frames. This a fun follow- great content!
Thanks! There are a couple people who will be building them, so I'm writing enough explanation that they can follow.
 

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Discussion Starter #56
Big boat for the big water and big rivers...but this should be done by April for early season, we'll see if I feel confident enough to run the Lochsa in it!!
 

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Discussion Starter #58
70 runs on the Lochsa, never run it drunk, don't plan to. Only the Class IV rapids get names, and there is more than 1 named rapid per mile. There isn't time to drink a beer in between rapids, and we're usually on the water by 11am, so there isn't time to get drunk beforehand. haha
But plenty drunk more than a couple times in camp later in the evening.

I love the river, just a matter of me mentally balancing whether I think I'll hit rocks and have to repair it vs how bad I want to run it in the dory!!
 

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70 runs on the Lochsa, never run it drunk, don't plan to. Only the Class IV rapids get names, and there is more than 1 named rapid per mile. There isn't time to drink a beer in between rapids, and we're usually on the water by 11am, so there isn't time to get drunk beforehand. haha
But plenty drunk more than a couple times in camp later in the evening.

I love the river, just a matter of me mentally balancing whether I think I'll hit rocks and have to repair it vs how bad I want to run it in the dory!!
Your passion is evident, this last line could be the first sentence in a dory and/or river book!
 
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I love the river, just a matter of me mentally balancing whether I think I'll hit rocks and have to repair it vs how bad I want to run it in the dory!!
This dilemma, pervades the hearts and minds of all Dory drivers, in all instances, and bad decisions abound, which teaches us how to scarf and repair LOL
 
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