Mountain Buzz banner
1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi Everyone,
New member, long time lurker here. I want to start by thanking all of you for lots of invaluable information over the last few years. I hope to contribute to the discussions moving forward.

I lucked out and scored a small group permit for the GC this July! We are going to be doing a swap at Phantom for 3 replacements, and I am wondering about possibilities for layovers on a 16 day permit. From what I have gathered, one layover day on a 16 day permit is possible, but 2 is unlikely? It'd be great if both "groups" could get a layover, but I'm guessing it would make for some really long days. Looking for some advice from those more experienced than me.

Also, what are your thoughts on days above and below Phantom? 8 above and 8 below? Thanks in advance for your time.

Matt
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
422 Posts
20 miles per day is hefty and will get tiring at lower water and with hikes included. Do the math and depending on where you take out, you can decide how bad you want the layovers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
83 Posts
Hi Everyone,
New member, long time lurker here. I want to start by thanking all of you for lots of invaluable information over the last few years. I hope to contribute to the discussions moving forward.

I lucked out and scored a small group permit for the GC this July! We are going to be doing a swap at Phantom for 3 replacements, and I am wondering about possibilities for layovers on a 16 day permit. From what I have gathered, one layover day on a 16 day permit is possible, but 2 is unlikely? It'd be great if both "groups" could get a layover, but I'm guessing it would make for some really long days. Looking for some advice from those more experienced than me.

Also, what are your thoughts on days above and below Phantom? 8 above and 8 below? Thanks in advance for your time.

Matt
The upper is usually shorter than the lower.

Commercial oar trips and oar/paddle combos frequently run 13 day full canyon trips so you can easily do 16 days with two layovers but it does take planning and coordination. You’ll be at summer flows so you’ll have plenty of water and can easily make miles. That does mean getting on the water in a timely manner. We shook for being off the beach between 0800 and 0830 and with hikes hitting the beach around 1600.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
85 Posts
The upper is usually shorter than the lower.

Commercial oar trips and oar/paddle combos frequently run 13 day full canyon trips so you can easily do 16 days with two layovers but it does take planning and coordination. You’ll be at summer flows so you’ll have plenty of water and can easily make miles. That does mean getting on the water in a timely manner. We shook for being off the beach between 0800 and 0830 and with hikes hitting the beach around 1600.
Agree with most of what you are saying, but also keep in mind those commercial trips don't scout many of the rapids. If it's you're first trip down you'll need to scout more which can add significant time (especially with newer/less experienced boaters). Get on the water early and plan for afternoon headwinds, my last trip we had 19 days to get to Pearce (Diamond Creek was closed for COVID and the NPS only gave us 3 extra days to get to Pearce), and we only had time for 1 layover and we still needed a night float.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
422 Posts
Yeah... not so sure you can "easily do 16 days with two layovers" including an exchange and half-day piddling around on boat beach and at Phantom Ranch. I wouldn't do a layover on the upper, and I'd strive to make a layover well worth it on the lower if you're going to do it.

I didn't see that your trip was for next July, so you will have higher flows and likely not too bad wind but still...

Layovers are cool and all but not everything. There's a lot to see and do down there, especially with limited time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
83 Posts
Yeah... not so sure you can "easily do 16 days with two layovers" including an exchange and half-day piddling around on boat beach and at Phantom Ranch. I wouldn't do a layover on the upper, and I'd strive to make a layover well worth it on the lower if you're going to do it.

I didn't see that your trip was for next July, so you will have higher flows and likely not too bad wind but still...

Layovers are cool and all but not everything. There's a lot to see and do down there, especially with limited time.
I would disagree. I just worked a 14 day with a late morning launch day 1, 14 people exchanging at Pipe Creek and hit all of the major hikes.

Averaging 15 miles a day on the Grand with summer flows is hardly a ‘push’.

I would say that most trips do at least a layover or at a minimum a few half overs - especially if you have folks wanting to do some of the longer hikes eg Lava/Chuar, Dinosaur, the Tapeats Up and Over, etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,833 Posts
Really depends on the style and speed of your group. We did a Main-Lower Salmon in late June (low-moderate but not high flows...5600 at Corn Creek when we launched, Main was down to 8500 at White Bird when we got there)....13 days with 2 layovers. Lots of 20-25mi days, and we were off the beach at 8:30am at the earliest, 9:45am at the latest. Not as many popular side hikes or diversions on the Salmon, the river itself was the goal.

You only have 3 replacements, decide which group will best appreciate the layover and pick a single day.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
131 Posts
Below Matkat, Racetrack (Tapeats access), Bass (spend day in Shinumo), Nankoweap - tree shade, flowing water very high up in the drainage. Tuckup - great shade + water if weather isn’t suspect. Fern Glen.

Just off :Edit 16days: to Pearce, 2 layovers, never felt remotely rushed. All depends on the group style.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
613 Posts
It's much cooler on the water than shore and stays light late so ne need to rush, go long on your days.. No cooked breakfasts except layover = layover days. Plan layovers where there are wet hikes. Sleep on the boat not shore (weather permitting). If you have one very Grand experienced rower and everyone does their homework you may be to skip a few scouts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
83 Posts
It's much cooler on the water than shore and stays light late so ne need to rush, go long on your days.. No cooked breakfasts except layover = layover days. Plan layovers where there are wet hikes. Sleep on the boat not shore (weather permitting). If you have one very Grand experienced rower and everyone does their homework you may be to skip a few scouts.

Agreed. With some homework, good communication and spacing it's easy to winnow your scouts down to Hance, Crystal and Lava.
 

·
Premium Member
14' Expedition Rigged RMR
Joined
·
6 Posts
Agreed. With some homework, good communication and spacing it's easy to winnow your scouts down to Hance, Crystal and Lava.
If you're catching it at low flow I'd consider adding Horn to this short list to scout.
There's plenty of recovery room at the bottom, but at low water that's one big, steep, scary rapid.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
83 Posts
If you're catching it at low flow I'd consider adding Horn to this short list to scout.
There's plenty of recovery room at the bottom, but at low water that's one big, steep, scary rapid.
OP said July - it will be in summer flows so most likely 8-16k making it an easy run to split the horns without a scout.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
713 Posts
You can do this easily. I once deadheaded out from Phantom after the entire trip walked out (that is another story) and we went to Diamond Creek in 4 days which is over 125 miles. Our first day we left Phantom about 7:15 after getting the peeps on the trail and rowed all the way down to a little alcove across from Randy's Rock which was about 40 miles of big water and the only place we got out to take a quick look was Crystal.

IMO the best way to make miles is to get up and get going early and try to limits scouts and scout time. FWIW, I did take a short look at a video posted recently on here that explained the runs on most of the big rapids. The lines they suggest are pretty much right on and if you can remember them and execute the run you will have few problems.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Thanks to you all for your replies - very helpful. We’ll see how the group comes together to make it happen!
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top