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"stolen"
"libbie"
"disinclined to learn"
"demanding"
"guaranteed"
"destroy"
"threats"
"no wrong"
"wrong"
"usual tactics"
Do we need to have a war of words, or perhaps just post an opinion, without malice?
 
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Discussion Starter #43 (Edited)
2tomcat2, I removed my "'disinclined to learn' from history" remark. That was way over the top and I'm sorry.
 

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Please don't. A quieter, rational voice needs to be heard. Escalating anger leads us somewhere we do NOT want to go!
No village! I should be banned from this site as all conservative voices are being expunged from online social sites. How will this country ever survive if my opinion and those like opinions are allowed to flourish? GeoRon's attacks on every opposing thought are what is needed in the upcoming societal norms.
 

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I'm just glad that chop chop is no longer soap boxing that this election was stolen by wholesale fraud. He seems to have become more humble after realizing how wrong he was.
Wrong again GeoRong I just see as pointless, arguing your rantings. I only stopped by this chat originally because of your stupid ass subject header. Your rantings of purge are closer to Hitler's than anything I've seen posted on here. But nothing different than your usual tactic of attack, attack, attack.
 

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Discussion Starter #46 (Edited)
No village! I should be banned from this site as all conservative voices are being expunged from online social sites. How will this country ever survive if my opinion and those like opinions are allowed to flourish?
chop chop,
I'm very proud of you as you continue to come to your senses and recognize the need for conservative voices to be expunged that are calling for more violence, more sedition and more insurrection against democracy. You expressed it very eloquently such that there can be no doubt as to why violent extremist should be monitored and silenced when they are unable to control there own self-deluding and self-destructive behavior. Did you ever think of the favor that you are being protected from yourself and helping keep yourself out of jail? Many of yesterdays rioters are going to be spending years in jail convicted using video and recordings of their own violent words and actions. Unless trump in the name of unifying America decides to pardon them, and himself.

BTW, I never asked to purge you. But to be clear, I have zero tolerance for baseless conspiracy theories, election fraud lies, instigators of riots and insurrection, etc.
 

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chop chop,
I'm very proud of you as you continue to come to your senses and recognize the need for conservative voices, and yours, to be expunged that are calling for more violence, more sedition, more insurrection against democracy.
There is no point in discussing anything with you. You're rude and crude. I'll let your next post go unmatched, so have at it...
 

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2tomcat2, I removed by "'disinclined to learn' from history" remark. That was way over the top and I'm sorry.
Not trying to discourage discussion...just my 2 cents about how words can lift and enlighten or disappoint and be hurtful
 
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Discussion Starter #50 (Edited)
Missing the middle ground. Kind of like hitting the v-wave head on.
Sorry Sarah, Hard to figure out what middle ground might be?????????? They only slightly?, perhaps midway?, meant to sack the capitol, attempt to kill RINO's and Democrats, over throw democracy and actually result in death and mayhem?

When I began this thread I was watching "live" speeches from the president and fellow instigators inciting riot. By no means did they suggest some middle ground concerning what they wanted the mob to do. I watched as very obviously violent people marched toward the capitol and could feel even here in Denver the fear that trevko's friend in post #33 felt when she rode her bike near ground zero. I kept making entries stating that I can't believe, you wouldn't believe, what I'm watching. In hindsight, WE sensible people even now can't believe that it happened.

When trump said, go, I'll be there with you one horrifying flash was that trump(well, bonespurs won't be there himself) intended to show up with military squads to enact a violent coup. I watched the fear in the faces of legislators as pence and polosi where scurried away and orders were given to get on the ground. More horror, the thought that were these actions and orders from good guys or coup participants? Were congressional leaders being led away to get shot. Were the rest of the congressmen about to be machine gunned. This was not Hollywood, it was real. It is obvious now what violent right wing extremist are prepared to do, such as assassinate the governor of Michigan. They are scary, they are evil.

Sorry, Sarah, it is hard for me to contemplate a "middle ground" right now after reexperiencing the same horror I felt watching coverage of the smoking Oklahoma City Federal Building and the live falling of the World Trade Center Towers. I only feel a "middle finger" for radicalized, deluded violent trumpers right now.

BTW, there are indications that mayhem is planned again before the inauguration. (I'm not kidding.) That is partially why social media planning methods must be cut off for radicalized conservative.
 

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Discussion Starter #51
Missing the middle ground. Kind of like hitting the v-wave head on.
Sarah, jgrebe's post #21 in this thread is a common sense, calm expression of non partisan status quo concerning recent events.

If you want a right of center perspective of what is the cause of this kaos, view Lindsey Grahams video posted earlier in this thread.
 

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Discussion Starter #53
Ironic, trump and others are going to get exactly what they are demanding, investigations and trials into election corruption and rigging. But,,, they are going to be the focus of the investigations and likely end up in jail.

Just to be clear, Graham is no bleeding heart "libbie". He one of trump's most reliable golf partners.
 

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Discussion Starter #54 (Edited)
That describes you perfectly.
Yes, chop chop, I have zero tolerance for people intent on overthrowing democracy in the United States of America using endless lies about a rigged election.

However, truthfully, the election was rigged. trump and his "ilk" were on your side. His presidency will be remembered in the history books as failed, constitutionally corrupt and ending with maybe a second impeachment for an attempt to overthrow democracy and the United States. There is little doubt that he will go on trail for trying to over throw a just and fair election determined time and time again by judges and election administrators of all persuasions.
 

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People who invoke democracy with this kind of frequency to make such arguments, which are frequently so hyperbolic as to self discrediting, are either:

A: Completely ignorant of historical cases of its failures, classical critiques of democracy regarding its inherent flaws and where it inevitably leads, and why it has been tried, failed, and abandoned repeatedly throughout history.

B: Disingenuous and arguing in bad faith.

Often a combination of both.

“Democracy” does not appear in the US Constitution, Bill of Rights, or the Declaration of Independence. The Framers of these documents were emphatic in their disdain for and criticism of “democracy”, citing its flaws, especially its inability to scale.
 

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Discussion Starter #56 (Edited)
People who invoke democracy with this kind of frequency to make such arguments, which are frequently so hyperbolic as to self discrediting, are either:

A: Completely ignorant of historical cases of its failures, classical critiques of democracy regarding its inherent flaws and where it inevitably leads, and why it has been tried, failed, and abandoned repeatedly throughout history.

B: Disingenuous and arguing in bad faith.

Often a combination of both.

“Democracy” does not appear in the US Constitution, Bill of Rights, or the Declaration of Independence. The Framers of these documents were emphatic in their disdain for and criticism of “democracy”, citing its flaws, especially its inability to scale.
Spoken like a true fascist. Democracy is a bad word.

Also, no need for a constitutional republic either based on what trumpers tried to do a few days ago. By their actions, a Constitutional Republic was tried and determined by trumpers as also "failed" because they could not win three free and fair elections; the presidency, the senate and the house so now time to convert to fascism/totalitarianism with trumpers in power for life.

Don't you have anything to say about an attempt to overthrow the government of he United States. Just a few words please on your thoughts concerning that topic from any of you conservatives, trumpers or whatever you want to call your self.

No, actually, I am arguing in good faith. I just have zero tolerance for people who tried to overthrow our constitutional republic called the United States.

Oh, by the way, democracy likely failed in the past because of people like trump.
 

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Sorry Sarah, Hard to figure out what middle ground might be?????????? They only slightly?, perhaps midway?, meant to sack the capitol, attempt to kill RINO's and Democrats, over throw democracy and actually result in death and mayhem?

When I began this thread I was watching "live" speeches from the president and fellow instigators inciting riot. By no means did they suggest some middle ground concerning what they wanted the mob to do. I watched as very obviously violent people marched toward the capitol and could feel even here in Denver the fear that trevko's friend in post #33 felt when she rode her bike near ground zero. I kept making entries stating that I can't believe, you wouldn't believe, what I'm watching. In hindsight, WE sensible people even now can't believe that it happened.

When trump said, go, I'll be there with you one horrifying flash was that trump(well, bonespurs won't be there himself) intended to show up with military squads to enact a violent coup. I watched the fear in the faces of legislators as pence and polosi where scurried away and orders were given to get on the ground. More horror, the thought that were these actions and orders from good guys or coup participants? Were congressional leaders being led away to get shot. Were the rest of the congressmen about to be machine gunned. This was not Hollywood, it was real. It is obvious now what violent right wing extremist are prepared to do, such as assassinate the governor of Michigan. They are scary, they are evil.

Sorry, Sarah, it is hard for me to contemplate a "middle ground" right now after reexperiencing the same horror I felt watching coverage of the smoking Oklahoma City Federal Building and the live falling of the World Trade Center Towers. I only feel a "middle finger" for radicalized, deluded violent trumpers right now.

BTW, there are indications that mayhem is planned again before the inauguration. (I'm not kidding.) That is partially why social media planning methods must be cut off for radicalized conservative.
No, was not saying there is any middle ground on the invasion of the Capitol. The event continues to unfold and become more complicated and ugly. The violence, anger, and gaslighting is not going away anytime soon.
And Lady G: "All I was trying to do was help." Uh, help what, who? (That is Sen Graham.) The back peddling disgusts me as much as the invasion. As if this was merely a small game to play to not be primaried.
Yes, I am referring to the lost middle ground in US politics where discussion and compromise actually accomplished things. The days before Ted Cruz? Or the days before Gingrich? Certainly the days before Citizens United. Anyway a distant memory.
The last four years have been a train wreck for democracy. And, yes, I marched on January 21, 2017. A lot of us have been saying this was coming all along.
Sarah
 

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People who invoke democracy with this kind of frequency to make such arguments, which are frequently so hyperbolic as to self discrediting, are either:

A: Completely ignorant of historical cases of its failures, classical critiques of democracy regarding its inherent flaws and where it inevitably leads, and why it has been tried, failed, and abandoned repeatedly throughout history.

B: Disingenuous and arguing in bad faith.

Often a combination of both.

“Democracy” does not appear in the US Constitution, Bill of Rights, or the Declaration of Independence. The Framers of these documents were emphatic in their disdain for and criticism of “democracy”, citing its flaws, especially its inability to scale.
Hey, you know, I get that maybe it's too much for you to have a say in how your society is governed, or that, heaven forbid, folks that think differently from you, or that are the wrong color, have just as much say as you have. So please do us all a favor and leave. take your pick - Saudi Arabia, North Korea, China, or anyplace where you don't have to deal with choosing your leaders, having a say in our imperfect form of government, and you can have someone else tell you what to do. I'll even throw down $50 toward your one-way emmigration. My grandfather fought the fuckin' fascists across North Africa and then up through Italy, and now we're having to deal with them here 75 years later.

Yeah, democracy's messy but I'll go with what Winston Churchill said:

“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”

Hey, what about Somalia?? -They don't have a strong central government, it's a Libertarian paradise, and that $50 will go a long way there!
 
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Hey, you know, I get that maybe it's too much for you to have a say in how your society is governed, or that, heaven forbid, folks that think differently from you, or that are the wrong color, have just as much say as you have. So please do us all a favor and leave. take your pick - Saudi Arabia, North Korea, China, or anyplace where you don't have to deal with choosing your leaders, having a say in our imperfect form of government, and you can have someone else tell you what to do. I'll even throw down $50 toward your one-way emmigration. My grandfather fought the fuckin' fascists across North Africa and then up through Italy, and now we're having to deal with them here 75 years later.

Yeah, democracy's messy but I'll go with what Winston Churchill said:

“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”

Hey, what about Somalia?? -They don't have a strong central government, it's a Libertarian paradise, and that $50 will go a long way there!
I never said any of that. Please stop with the hyperbole and projection.

The democracy we have in practice is NOT the democracy you appear to envision in principle.

Of course I believe that people should have a say in how they are governed and how their leaders are selected. But you missed my point about understanding the failures and flaws of “democracy”, many of which are on full display at present and have resulted in our current political miasma.

You mean to tell me that the current social and political situation we find our nation in is the result of determining and executing the popular will of the people? Give me a break. If so, clearly democracy is so flawed as to be unfit for purpose. If not, then certainly it’s because only people you don’t agree with are the ones who bear responsibility for it by not playing by the rules, right?

Our “democracy” is failing to the extent that we have permitted the restraints and provisions placed as safeguards against its flaws and eventual consequences to be either removed or otherwise circumvented - allowing for its subversion and exploitation by those who do understand these flaws and how they can be manipulated to accumulate to themselves obviously dangerous amounts power. We now see this playing out to its inevitable conclusion which is the rise of identity politics, disenfranchisement under authoritarianism, and eventually, despotism and genocide. Make no mistake that this is where we are headed without serious corrective action, and I fear that we have likely run out the clock for peaceful political solutions to arise. I do not say this in any spirit of celebration or prescription, to be clear. Only by way of observation, and I really hope I’m wrong.

Let’s be real, the most serious threats to the principles of democracy have already succeeded. To pretend that it’s gravest threats lie before us is to be willfully blind to or otherwise incapable of understanding its flaws and how they’ve played out to get us into the situation we’re in.

I don’t pretend to have the answers. I can only hope to shed light on the problem. In my estimation, there is no path forward without at least an understanding of how we got here. That starts with establishing the relationship between cause and effect.

Sadly, at this point, I fear that the only way out is through.
 

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Also @GeoRon,

Historically, one of the defining characteristics of fascism is the merger of corporate and state interests - a key feature glaringly lacking from the political right, specifically in the case “trumpism” in your comparison.

That feature lies conspicuously with the political left in this country, especially as it concerns corporations that have the power to shape and influence public opinion, e.g.: media and consumer culture.

American as well as international corporate interests are squarely aligned against the so-called political movements that you’ve made boogeymen of, regardless of whether or not they are in power.

So apparently now is the time for the differentiation you ask for.

Until such a time arises that said corporate interests are aligned with an empowered right wing state, perhaps you should refrain from calling it fascism and come up with another word for it.

Find a new code word that represents “Politics I don’t agree with”.

Inasmuch as there are corporate entities whose interests appear to lie with what you perceive as the mainstream political “right wing” (which I anticipate you might cite in regards to trumps tax cuts), I hope this helps lead you to consider that perhaps there is something fundamentally flawed with your conception of the 2 party state as consisting of diametrically opposed entities.

Things become much clearer when you can extract yourself from this paradigm.

“Fascism” is so frequently thrown around as an epithet because of the imagery and emotion that it evokes, not because it has any real meaning beyond being a blanket term for political views with which one disagrees. Descriptive accuracy is, at best, a distant second consideration in its use. More often than not, what follows from its invocation is a stream of invective hurled at ones political opponents, with little thought given to its accuracy.

Like so many buzzwords in modern leftist parlance, such as “racist”, “misogynist”, “homophobe”, and a whole host of other -ists, -isms, and -phobes, they serve mostly as labels used to reduce ones opponents to strawmen for the purposes of avoiding thoughtful discussion or argumentation. They are losing currency with anyone who is concerned with intellectual honesty.
 
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