Mountain Buzz banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
858 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Background:
In order to explain how this frame came to be I’d have tostart by explaining the boat switch that necessitated the new frame. For the last five years I had been boatingwith a 156D which was a fine boat and was a very good fit for my family at thetime.
Over the last few years I found that I was boating solo orwith just one or two passengers as my kids grew older. My daughter is now outon her own and my son is 100% of the time rowing his own boat. Although I lovedthe do it all nature of the 156D it was very hard to manage for day trips withlow people counts to help load and unload. One of our favorite day runs theUpper Spokane requires a 30 yard uphill carry.
New Boat:
This season started with a new 40 pound lighter 136DD to replace my 156D, with the high hopesof having something that will nail the day runs and also offer carry capacityfor 2-3 for wilderness floats. This boat has far exceeded my expectations, veryplayful while still offering enough capacity for our multiday needs.
New Frame:
I wanted something that would work equally well for daytrips as well as overnighters, for day trip mode I wanted the smallestconfiguration possible to cut down on weight and bulk. From the very beginning I wanted a two partframe or two module frame so that I can run just a basic rowing frame whendoing simple day floats.
I quickly found myself running out of length as I alreadyhad two 16” boxes and a Prospector cooler a one piece 4 bay frame just fits onthe chafe strips but adding the additional cross tube that a two module framewould require added too much length.
Luckily Guy with Whitewater Machine Works was able to solvemy length problem with two solutions.Firstly by building the frame with smaller OD tubing this frees up about twoinches of length right off the bat. Secondly buy making the fames pin togetherwhich effectively deletes one cross bar vs a two module frame.

Review:
I’m stoked with the frame it wildly exceeded my expectations;it is so easy to take apart with the pins no tools needed. I especially likethe versatility that the two part module adds. I can’t imagine have a betterframe for this boat its absolutely perfect for my needs.
 

Attachments

·
My name isn't Will
Joined
·
216 Posts
That's pretty cool. I would like a day frame for my current boat, but it's probably not going to happen. If I ever replace boat and/or frame, I'll consider something like this. Very versatile indeed, and might open up some more difficult access and take-out than backing the trailer down a ramp.


How much does the position of the oar towers change when you add the forward bays? I'd be concerned that would change how the boat handled. I think I've noticed handling changes when my frame had shifted forward on a trip this year.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
858 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
When in its full configuration the oarlocks are near the center of the boat. When in day frame mode you can pretty much have them wherever you choose.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Mountain Buzz mobile app
 

·
My name isn't Will
Joined
·
216 Posts
When in its full configuration the oarlocks are near the center of the boat. When in day frame mode you can pretty much have them wherever you choose.

I love it. Now I want one. Probably not until I get a new raft, though, and I hope that's a LONG time away.



Whoever built the frame I own was taller than I am; the oarlocks are too far away to be optimal, but otherwise it's basic and functional and holds my old smaller boxes; it's actually a nice set-up, just not ideal for someone my size.



Realistically I think having a smaller boat for day trips on smaller rivers would just be a hoot, and I'd probably JUST get a day frame. But then I need a bigger house :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,508 Posts
Welcome to the 136DD club...I love mine!!

I also used Whitewater Machine Works...but I got their double rail frame fittings and did the tubing myself. I do really like the lower profile and lightweight frames they make. It would be great for an expedition package where you had to break it down and fly with it. I know there is company that makes a little cataraft setup designed to fly with, and they use the WWMW frame. Two bags that are less then 50lbs each so no extra cost.

Realistically I think having a smaller boat for day trips on smaller rivers would just be a hoot, and I'd probably JUST get a day frame. But then I need a bigger house :)
Haha...small boat big water is an even bigger hoot.

I recently went this route and got a Hyside Mini-Max and its been a lot of fun. I made a little day frame with just a seat and oar towers and it does a great job. I made a little 3 bay frame too, and I did a Lodore trip and Westwater trip and it also did a great job with that.
 

·
My name isn't Will
Joined
·
216 Posts
I will still need a "bigger" boat to haul gear. In my case, that's just 15'. But I sometimes fill it up.


It's an easy but organized set up. I think the frame was a home built copy of a Cambridge Welding frame. I could still read the printing on the galvanized pipe when I bought the boat a couple years ago, and the boat was built in 2000. Looked pretty new, so maybe it just sat around a lot. Main boxes are in 13" wide bays, two Captains' boxes, and a WAY cooler that fits the space that was probably originally designed for an old Igloo and that a Yeti 110 fits pretty good. In case you weren't aware, WAY is an acronym. It stands for We're Against Yeti.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,152 Posts
Super super cool frame, Paul7 and WMW! Was pricing comparable to similar high performance frames?






How much does the position of the oar towers change when you add the forward bays? I'd be concerned that would change how the boat handled. I think I've noticed handling changes when my frame had shifted forward on a trip this year.
After running a variety of stern, 2-bay, 3-bay, and 4-bay frames on 15-16' boats, I believe that oar tower placement makes way less difference than you'd think.

Passenger (weight) and gear placement make a MUCH bigger DIFFERENCE.

The boat doesn't pivot around the oar towers. It pivots somewhere between the center of lateral resistance in the water (friction/water resisting the turn) and the center of gravity (inertia of all the gear resisting the turn)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
I also have a 156D and would like to get something a bit small and a bit lighter. I’ll do day trips with several kids in the boat so I want more room than a Super Puma would offer. It seemed that this is close to what I’d like, although still a bit heavier than I’d like.
I’m also making a new frame this winter that is convertible from day to overnight for my 156D. Thanks for including the picture of the breakdown connection. That seems more precise with less play than the DRE/AAA style swedge connection. Is that a separate machined fitting that slips in both ends of the pipe?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
I also used Whitewater Machine Works...but I got their double rail frame fittings and did the tubing myself.

Is that a new style double barrel fitting on Paul’s boat? It seems much slimmer cross section than I recall on the previous version.

Paul - Does this still work on the round pipe? Is there an insert on the square tubing? I would assume the square tube doesn’t just slip over a round make end.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
858 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
This is what Whitewater Machine Works calls their small raft frame it's different than their regular double barrel fittings. I went this route to save a couple inches of length. Even though it's smaller diameter its still super burly.

Pricing wise it was a wash with NRS and other options. I think it's a bargain actually considering the machine work done by hand here by a local craftsman. If I had it to to over I'd buy it again the quality is astounding.

The connection point is machined and welded to the front part of the frame. This amazes me no matter how I orient the crossbars the pins just line up perfectly. When sliding the ends together absolutely no pressure or manipulation is needed they just slide together.

This frame is also hard anodized and didn't leave any marks on my boat.

Guy only sells the small raft frame as a full frame which I actually agree with it didn't seem to cost any more that way and it's perfect.

One of my favorite things about this design is the snap pins I can break it down in minutes and I don't loose my crossbar placement such as with a nrs style frame.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,508 Posts
Is that a new style double barrel fitting on Paul’s boat? It seems much slimmer cross section than I recall on the previous version.

Paul - Does this still work on the round pipe? Is there an insert on the square tubing? I would assume the square tube doesn’t just slip over a round make end.
These are the ones I used... Double Barrel Fittings

They use the same size pipe as the NRS low pro's. I actually used a few of both to make it a four and a half bay frame (one bay is only long enough to fit a pair of rocket boxes sideways). They aren't cheap, and I imagined them to be bigger when I bought them...but they worked out well for me and I have no regrets.

If I had to change something, I'd make them about 3-4 inches longer and change the design so that that the fitting itself rides on the tubes. As it stands, the frame sits pretty high off the tubes. I made it work by making plates that allowed me to recess the decks between the fittings rather then on top of them.

As Paul said...his is made from the smaller sized tubing and frame fittings. I used one of the expedition cats that use those frames (the super light ones that you can fly with) and it seemed like it was plenty strong and the lightweight nature of it was sweet. I'm sure he would sell the fittings seperately, but he doesn't have them on WWMW website.

Glad to see these are getting made...when I bought mine Guy said he was taking a break due to hand surgery stuff. Seems like he has recovered and is back at it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
They use the same size pipe as the NRS low pro's.



If I had to change something, I'd make them about 3-4 inches longer and change the design so that that the fitting itself rides on the tubes.

Yup - this is what I’m familiar with. I didn’t realize Guy was making multiple sizes.

I think getting the double rail to straddle the tube is key. I think it would be a bit more challenging on my 156D since it seems to have somewhat of a continuous curve to it, albeit a fairly large radius.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
Glad to see these are getting made...when I bought mine Guy said he was taking a break due to hand surgery stuff. Seems like he has recovered and is back at it.

Yup, me too. Last I talked to him was early summer and he was shutting down for a bit and having surgery. I’d still like to get over to his shop and check things out since he’s just over the hill from me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
266 Posts
This is what Whitewater Machine Works calls their small raft frame it's different than their regular double barrel fittings. I went this route to save a couple inches of length. Even though it's smaller diameter its still super burly.

What is the diameter of the size rails? Are they smaller than typical 1.25” (1.63” OD)?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
517 Posts
I'm a huge fan of Guy and his frames.

The mini raft frames are 1.25" OD either square or round. The square cross bars are nice for hanging boxes. I also think the bolt on seat mount works a bit better on square bars, though there's always a little play with a pinned bar.

The frame shown by the OP uses Guy's mini double rail fittings. They are fixed width at ~8" and pretapped for decks. That makes the decks similar to recretec decks, not the wider DRE style 10-15" decks.

The frames are amazing light. The hard anodizing holds up really well and looks good too.

I have a couple of frames from Guy:

Breakdown cat frame. welded scout bars. welded crossbars so each crossbar includes a footbar. scoutbars can be nixed to make a burly raft frame and save some weight.

mini raft frame for me 13' avon: super light. 2- or 3- bay, single rail frame

I have on order a frame like OPs, using the 1.25" OD mini dbl rail fittings. And mom just put one on her minimax.

I DIY'd some crossbars and ran the small single rail raft frame on my 16' avon. Guy thought it was too big a boat, but the frame took a drybox and 150qt cooler from Boundary to Vinegar with no problems, so IMO these frames are tough.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
WWMW frame

These are the ones I used... Double Barrel Fittings

They use the same size pipe as the NRS low pro's. I actually used a few of both to make it a four and a half bay frame (one bay is only long enough to fit a pair of rocket boxes sideways). They aren't cheap, and I imagined them to be bigger when I bought them...but they worked out well for me and I have no regrets.

If I had to change something, I'd make them about 3-4 inches longer and change the design so that that the fitting itself rides on the tubes. As it stands, the frame sits pretty high off the tubes. I made it work by making plates that allowed me to recess the decks between the fittings rather then on top of them.
Thanks to Paul and E-M for your comments and photos! I've seriously considered building a frame mfg'd by Guy.
E-M, I'm having a senior moment trying to understand your comment about the design needing to be 3-4 inches longer? Like you, I want decks on the frame. It seems to me that WWMW's frame fittings allow for a cleaner deck install than the LoPro fittings. Did you bolt aluminum diamond plate to yours?
Do either of you notice wobble or flex at the joints of your quick release pins?
E-M, your idea of a 1/2 bay for rocket boxes is intriguing. How long is your boat? Pics?
If you wouldn't mind a phone conversation for a few more questions, PM me.
Thanks guys!
Darryl
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,508 Posts
Thanks to Paul and E-M for your comments and photos! I've seriously considered building a frame mfg'd by Guy.
E-M, I'm having a senior moment trying to understand your comment about the design needing to be 3-4 inches longer? Like you, I want decks on the frame. It seems to me that WWMW's frame fittings allow for a cleaner deck install than the LoPro fittings. Did you bolt aluminum diamond plate to yours?
Do either of you notice wobble or flex at the joints of your quick release pins?
E-M, your idea of a 1/2 bay for rocket boxes is intriguing. How long is your boat? Pics?
If you wouldn't mind a phone conversation for a few more questions, PM me.
Thanks guys!
Darryl
I mean I wish the fittings were longer. The flat part on top of the fittings is 10" long now and I wish they were 12-14" long. I mostly just want a wider deck without the plywood hanging over but it would make it lower profile too.

How they are currently designed, the side rails that bolt to the fittings are what sits on the boat. If I was designing them, I'd make it so that the fittings AND the side rails sit on the boat. As it stands, the tops of the fittings are about .5" above the tubes of the boat. Even if you only use 1/2" plywood for your decks, the deck sits about an inch or a bit more off the tube of the boat. It doesn't sound like a lot, but it makes it very high profile.

To combat this, I made some plates that bolt to the fitting that extend past the sides of the fitting so that I can put my decks BETWEEN the fittings. This makes it so the decks only sit about half an inch off the tubes.

Here is a picture of the plates and how the decks sit between the fittings and how the NRS LoPro's integrate (they sit a half inch lower then the WWMW ones)...



Oh, and I use bolts not pins. I get some creaking on my foot bar when I push sometimes (a bit of water helps this) but I have basically zero flex.

My boat is a 136DD, so its 13.5' but its diminishing tube so its really like its a 14". It has a long straight section and the floor stays flat for most of the boat, so it has more room in it then many boats its size. If I squish it down, I can fit a 38" drybox between the tubes(You can see my two dryboxes in the picture) about 18" from the furthest forward part of the interior in the bow. Essentially, its almost perfect to fit two ammo cans cross ways. I do the half bay right behind my cooler, then do a Everything bag behind that. The boat is fully utilized and the front dry box is just far enough away to not hit a passenger with my oars.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top