In the case of the rafting accident, there needs to be a good investigation on the owner of the boat. He took it upon himself to guide this young group (all of them in their early 20s) and should have known about the damn. If this man knew this danger exsisted and still ran this at night then charges need to be filed. Accidents are one thing, but negligence is totally different. Most people know the risks in normal conditions, but this was totally avoidable. Guiding during the day is one thing, but rafting in the dark is just plain stupid. People need to be accountable.
Recent boating accidents on the Ark
Last week we had 2 accidents one death and still looking for a missing woman which I am sure won't turn out very good.
The first death mid week a friend and Salida fixture at the play hole saw a lone man getting ready to put in at the boat ramp in his duckie.
My friend said he almost said something to him just seeing if he was OK he was by himself and looked a little unsure and out of place, he didn't say anything and a few hours latter he turned up dead in the canyon.
Over the weekend a group put in at 4:30 in the afternoon at fisherman's bridge in a raft and were headed to Salida. (crazy to think they could make this in daylight) They ended up in the dark and went over the low head Dam a very dangerous place.
I am not sure how to help or prevent these accidents but from now on if I see something that looks a little weird or off, I am going to inquire in a nice way and try to help.
Lets all help prevent these tragic accidents. This are foolish things people are doing, but there are a lot of foolish people out there. That probably don't want to die.
The first death mid week a friend and Salida fixture at the play hole saw a lone man getting ready to put in at the boat ramp in his duckie.
My friend said he almost said something to him just seeing if he was OK he was by himself and looked a little unsure and out of place, he didn't say anything and a few hours latter he turned up dead in the canyon.
Over the weekend a group put in at 4:30 in the afternoon at fisherman's bridge in a raft and were headed to Salida. (crazy to think they could make this in daylight) They ended up in the dark and went over the low head Dam a very dangerous place.
I am not sure how to help or prevent these accidents but from now on if I see something that looks a little weird or off, I am going to inquire in a nice way and try to help.
Lets all help prevent these tragic accidents. This are foolish things people are doing, but there are a lot of foolish people out there. That probably don't want to die.
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At 20 you are old enough to get out of the boat on your own volition. Unless this was a commercial or pirate trip I fail to see why negligence would be brought up.In the case of the rafting accident, there needs to be a good investigation on the owner of the boat. He took it upon himself to guide this young group (all of them in their early 20s) and should have known about the damn. If this man knew this danger exsisted and still ran this at night then charges need to be filed. Accidents are one thing, but negligence is totally different. Most people know the risks in normal conditions, but this was totally avoidable. Guiding during the day is one thing, but rafting in the dark is just plain stupid. People need to be accountable.
I learned that lesson a few years back. Yes, I say something if things look wrong. Some times they still don't listen, but we can only do so much. I've had it turn out really well, where we had some college kids join our group, and we were able to help them out along the way. They were smart, took our instruction well, and we all had a great day.
Earlier that same season we said something to a couple who were going to solo a big coleman lake canoe down a river they had no business on. They broached on the first rapid, and needed assistance. We might have prevented a disaster that day, (aiding them in rescue) but at the time it was frustrating. They were unprepared and helplessly stuck without someone intervening.
If I see any safety issues with kids involved, I feel the need to speak up. I don't really care who it pisses off. Typically I see the most problems on the class II beer floats in our area. People don't take those parts of the river seriously, and are generally underprepared mentally and physically.
Earlier that same season we said something to a couple who were going to solo a big coleman lake canoe down a river they had no business on. They broached on the first rapid, and needed assistance. We might have prevented a disaster that day, (aiding them in rescue) but at the time it was frustrating. They were unprepared and helplessly stuck without someone intervening.
If I see any safety issues with kids involved, I feel the need to speak up. I don't really care who it pisses off. Typically I see the most problems on the class II beer floats in our area. People don't take those parts of the river seriously, and are generally underprepared mentally and physically.
I just learned the owner and oarsman of the boat was approximately 60 years old, and an experienced boater. Some people I know did the Grand with him years back. He supposedly knows the Ark and has run it many times before.In the case of the rafting accident, there needs to be a good investigation on the owner of the boat. He took it upon himself to guide this young group (all of them in their early 20s) and should have known about the damn. If this man knew this danger exsisted and still ran this at night then charges need to be filed. Accidents are one thing, but negligence is totally different. Most people know the risks in normal conditions, but this was totally avoidable. Guiding during the day is one thing, but rafting in the dark is just plain stupid. People need to be accountable.
Although I believe alcohol might have been a factor. In my opinion this man just killed someone. When people come to town and I take them rafting they are trusting me to do the right thing they don't know. Especially 20 year olds with an older man.
I have had a lot of guests in town lately that I have taken for various floats, but I know they are completely trusting me to do the right thing.
IMHO it was total negligence the leader of the trip put in at fisherman's bridge and was heading to Salida at 4:30 in the afternoon. That is stupid to begin with.At 20 you are old enough to get out of the boat on your own volition. Unless this was a commercial or pirate trip I fail to see why negligence would be brought up.
Once it became dark he should of eddied out and went to a plan B but heading through that rocky braided stretch with a dam a head of you is total negligence. Especially when you are 60 and experienced and the rest of the group is 20 and don't know the river.
Maybe the plan was to float at night? I fail to see how someone over 18 y.o. can't make their own decision. What does the age differential have to do with anything? The younger guys were complicit in the decision making although no one in the boat really knew what was going on or they would have hit the boat chute.IMHO it was total negligence the leader of the trip put in at fisherman's bridge and was heading to Salida at 4:30 in the afternoon. That is stupid to begin with.
Once it became dark he should of eddied out and went to a plan B but heading through that rocky braided stretch with a dam a head of you is total negligence. Especially when you are 60 and experienced and the rest of the group is 20 and don't know the river.
Very very difficult for me to question anyone's "boating" decisions.
After many decades of running mild to wild white water, including multiple runs down the Grand Canyon, I made a decision that at the time made sense to me. Turns out, that decision came as close to killing me (I give thanks to my buds, National Park Service Helicopter Paramedics and Dr John Hall at Flagstaff Medical Center for bringing my pretty much lifeless body back from the brink) as is possible.
Based on my experience, I do not know what was going through anyone's mind on the ARK for the accident's day/evening we are now reviewing and even if I did, what I think may or may not count in their decision making process.
Bottom line: On most any WW run, if you get on the water craft, you made a decision and your experience may be good or bad.
After many decades of running mild to wild white water, including multiple runs down the Grand Canyon, I made a decision that at the time made sense to me. Turns out, that decision came as close to killing me (I give thanks to my buds, National Park Service Helicopter Paramedics and Dr John Hall at Flagstaff Medical Center for bringing my pretty much lifeless body back from the brink) as is possible.
Based on my experience, I do not know what was going through anyone's mind on the ARK for the accident's day/evening we are now reviewing and even if I did, what I think may or may not count in their decision making process.
Bottom line: On most any WW run, if you get on the water craft, you made a decision and your experience may be good or bad.
At 20 years old you are not a kid.... Maybe they wanted/planned on doing a night float?
Nooo... Condolences to those impacted by these tragedies. Education is the appropriate response, including at the putin, but no way should we start assessing blame and punishment to individuals on private trips. I just can't believe there was only one life lost with a raft running that dam.
So much speculation in this thread. Some jailhouse lawyering as well. Perhaps this should not be about blaming but trying to fix this as a system problem.
You also forgot about the three duckies that ran the dam on 6/23.
Regarding the use of "negligence": "Five elements are required to establish a prima facie case of negligence: the existence of a legal duty to exercise reasonable care; a failure to exercise reasonable care; cause in fact of physical harm by the negligent conduct; physical harm in the form of actual damages; and proximate cause, a showing that the harm is within the scope of liability."
Is running over a river hazard in the dark negligent? Does your buddy have a Legal DUTY to do anything here? Also, until the details of this are released to the public there may be more to the story.
You also forgot about the three duckies that ran the dam on 6/23.
Regarding the use of "negligence": "Five elements are required to establish a prima facie case of negligence: the existence of a legal duty to exercise reasonable care; a failure to exercise reasonable care; cause in fact of physical harm by the negligent conduct; physical harm in the form of actual damages; and proximate cause, a showing that the harm is within the scope of liability."
Is running over a river hazard in the dark negligent? Does your buddy have a Legal DUTY to do anything here? Also, until the details of this are released to the public there may be more to the story.
Once again I think we are missing the point here. All I am saying is the accident happened because it was to dark to see the warning sign, and the oarsman of the raft totally missed the boat shoot, which caused the boat to flip in an hydraulic in a low-head dam and someone drowned cause of this negligence. That's why I,m just saying there needs to be a good investigation on this matter. Article is the the boater safety forum under June 28th Accident on the Ark. If and only if, this captain knew where the damn was and still fucked-up, he needs to be accountable. Kinda like missing the take-out on a Class III river, to only go over a 20' waterfall and saying, "I'm sorry", No, I don't think that's going to cut it!!!
IMHO it was total negligence the leader of the trip put in at fisherman's bridge and was heading to Salida at 4:30 in the afternoon. That is stupid to begin with.
Once it became dark he should of eddied out and went to a plan B but heading through that rocky braided stretch with a dam a head of you is total negligence. Especially when you are 60 and experienced and the rest of the group is 20 and don't know the river.
Do you know if the leader wanted to call of the trip but was persuaded against his better judgement. Do you know that the other members weren't fimiliar with the river? Do you know who was captain at the moment going over the dam? If you know more than the rest of us please tell otherwise your "IMHO" is really based on imagination, right? Glad your "IMHO" isn't law.
+1 some ridiculous beliefs in here...Do you know if the leader wanted to call of the trip but was persuaded against his better judgement. Do you know that the other members weren't fimiliar with the river? Do you know who was captain at the moment going over the dam? If you know more than the rest of us please tell otherwise your "IMHO" is really based on imagination, right? Glad your "IMHO" isn't law.
Charges? Charges put people in prison. Are you comparing this to getting behind the wheel of a motor vehicle while drunk? Then again, if alcohol was involved, suddenly it's a much better comparison..... If this man knew this danger exsisted and still ran this at night then charges need to be filed. ...
natural selection at is finest.
people here were not children. adults can make their own decisions. if you were not there, you do NOT know the facts.
people here were not children. adults can make their own decisions. if you were not there, you do NOT know the facts.
Before this thread turns into a distorted argument about "law". I wanted to share a story.
I'll be brief.
17 years old. My girlfriend, sister and her boyfriend were wanting an adventure. My sis and her boyfriend decided they wanted to go rafting. We launched a 8' Sevylor onto class 2plus water. We had no clue what we were doing or where we Were going. We all were wearing pfds but We were the definition of fucking stupid. We make it about half way down and this guy in a 'nice boat' rolls by us. He just politely asks us how were doing, if we have been on that stretch of water before, ect. We told him the truth, but were too dumb to ask for help. He offered to let us follow him through the class 3 at the bottom of the run. We made it through thanks to that guy.
I have been hooked on boating since that day.
I'll be brief.
17 years old. My girlfriend, sister and her boyfriend were wanting an adventure. My sis and her boyfriend decided they wanted to go rafting. We launched a 8' Sevylor onto class 2plus water. We had no clue what we were doing or where we Were going. We all were wearing pfds but We were the definition of fucking stupid. We make it about half way down and this guy in a 'nice boat' rolls by us. He just politely asks us how were doing, if we have been on that stretch of water before, ect. We told him the truth, but were too dumb to ask for help. He offered to let us follow him through the class 3 at the bottom of the run. We made it through thanks to that guy.
I have been hooked on boating since that day.
Armchair quarterbacking at its finest. Point your fingers. Lay the blame.
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Im not saying that boating at night is the best idea. Also not saying that it is just plain stupid. Is there an escalated risk, sure. Is it unreasonable and negligent for experienced people to boat sections of river that they know well or are well within the realm of their skill level at night. I dont think so. I routinely run the upper/ lower section of cataract at night, ruby horse thief at night, browns at night, salida to rincon at night, finished tons of trips after dark, have been the spotlighter for some great surf sessions on little d in westy at night, on and on . All have gone well, every bit as good as my daytime runs. You have to be more aware and alert at night for sure but to say that it is just plain stupid in all accounts is a knee jerk ignorant statement at best. Just because you arent comfortable boating at night doesnt mean that it cant be done as safely as any other boating under the right conditions and controls. This is a risky sport, period. If you or anyone else is uncomfortable with it, dont do it! I hate to see how you guys vote.
Tossing out this blame at the drop of a hat with half the story at best is ridiculous. Could he be negligent, sure. IMHO, if he was boating wasted, should he be? no. Who knows what happened that night. If you were there, lets have the full story. You guys talk about "IMHO" but what you are saying doesnt seem humble at all.
Tossing out this blame at the drop of a hat with half the story at best is ridiculous. Could he be negligent, sure. IMHO, if he was boating wasted, should he be? no. Who knows what happened that night. If you were there, lets have the full story. You guys talk about "IMHO" but what you are saying doesnt seem humble at all.
I have run that stretch if the Ark at night- it's pretty easy. I cannot fathom how anyone could miss that boat chute and go over the dam. It's slow water, obvious channel and signs.....this is a curious one for sure.
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