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Kill the Rattlesnake or Let It Go

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The consequences a Rattlesnake bite can very quickly include loss of life or limb without treatment. Do not delay transport and treatment.

An educated guess is that the average Rattlesnake "Dry" Bite costs something to the tune of $20,000. An envenomation, requiring multiple doses of Cro-Fab and a hospital admission, would be quickly approaching the $100,000 mark. Throw in a backcountry helo evac ( which would be an appropriate call) and add $25- 50k.

Food for thought when considering being anywhere near know rattlesnake locations.

Not sure what I would do, but I would leave killing on the table.
 
I should have pointed out that the fatality stats from snakebites in the US are inherently inaccurate.

In the Bible Belt the Christian groups that handle snakes during worship skew the stats against southern snakes. Particularly because they often refuse medical care.

Numbers ..........
The data collection is inconsistent which causes a problem. Studies like the one I linked show the problem to be minuscule though. Even when you go through death certificates the # of deaths attributed to venomous snakes is minor (and its relatively hard to misdiagnose the cause of death by snake).

From the list you provided its easy to tease out the religious cases. Even with those gone the concern is largely limited to east of the Mississippi and SW US in Cali and AZ. But those are a handful of cases.

I did not enjoy having a Rattler next to my tent at our last camp on the Selway. Walked up to within a foot of it before I saw it. It remained calm while I walked further away. Moved my tent and the group remained on alert while going to the groover. It just sat in a root ball of a tree, I assume hunting for more appropriate sized prey.
 
From the list you provided its easy to tease out the religious cases. Even with those gone the concern is largely limited to east of the Mississippi and SW US in Cali and AZ. But those are a handful of cases.
All venom is not created equal.

The Rattlers in the NW are primarily hemotoxic.

All pit vipers in the US have that plus nuero and cardio - toxic components.
The last two here are worse and more prominent in southern rattlers.

=========

When killing a poisonous snake there needs to be caution with disposal of the head. Dogs will dig them up.
 
The consequences a Rattlesnake bite can very quickly include loss of life or limb without treatment. Do not delay transport and treatment.

An educated guess is that the average Rattlesnake "Dry" Bite costs something to the tune of $20,000. An envenomation, requiring multiple doses of Cro-Fab and a hospital admission, would be quickly approaching the $100,000 mark. Throw in a backcountry helo evac ( which would be an appropriate call) and add $25- 50k.

Food for thought when considering being anywhere near know rattlesnake locations.

Not sure what I would do, but I would leave killing on the table.
The costs are staggering. That said, a "rational" community discussion of the risk to whitewater boaters to this expensive reality would be to encourage users to have respectable insurance, something that should be common considering the inherent risk of our sport to begin with.

To the killing as a viable option for prevention.....killing a snake increases the risk of a snake bite in two very specific ways. First, it puts you in closer proximity to the snake. Even with a 10' foot oar you remain within the striking distance of most regional snakes (between their length, speed of movement and continued reflexes with all but an immediate shot to the brain). Two, more often than not you are going to escalate the reflexive behavior of the snake into a striking potential. Most snakes will not strike unless provoked or caught off guard in which case they strike defensively (which often means a "dry strike" as detailed above).

Most professionals and herpetologist recommend against killing snakes unless absolutely necessary (like confined to a dangerous place or the animal is already acting aggressively). So with the inherent increased risk of a strike and professional's largely recommending against intentionally killing them.....why should the option be viably recommended by laymen like us? Well beyond the very subjective personal opinions of "wilderness" is the issue of actual safety. Everything in medical training and risk management says to avoid escalating risk.

Its just funny to me that the primary response is to kill it when some simple steps can help, like: avoiding rocker areas or natural cavities (root balls like I previously experienced); moving camp or portions of camp if an animal is present; wearing high top shoes and long pants when snakes are known to be in the area; etc.

This reminds me of the concept author Glassner wrote about in "Culture of Fear". I have to wonder if social media like forums only amplifies the rhetoric. Instead of all of the shades of grey dealing with the subject we either get "kill" or "don't kill" when the middle ground is filled with a ton of options. When the discourse spins in the black and white I think we actually escalate our risks instead of mitigating them.

I can't condemn individuals for doing what they think is right, especially when their is unspoken context and nuance, but as a community I think its best to talk about all of the other options before condoning killing snakes. Food for thought.

Phillip
 
On the Grande Ronde last week we avoided a campsite that was undeveloped.

It was flat and grassy. Dried grass about a foot high.
In a natural condition.

It makes more sense to use a campsite where the ground has been somewhat denuded by repetitive camping.
We like to think of ourselves as having no impact because we pack everything out. That is not true.

Trampling the vegetation is a safer camp. Snakewise.

===========

I disagree on the risk of killing a snake.
That can be done easily with a tool.
Handling the snake afterwards is the riskiest moment.

Just use an oar to place it in the fire.

(In South Carolina on a prescribed fire I took a dead copperhead, killed on a road by a vehicle, and with a shovel I placed the entire snake with some garbage being burned. I told everyone stay away at the briefing. Monitored it. It absolutely burned to competition. No fangs left, No nothing.
Trivia: S Carolina has a lot of roadside garbage to dispose of. Handy stuff.)
 
And a basic broken arm is ~10K with a leg being ~20K

If you spend any time in a hospital setting for any reason, it's going to be 10's of thousands of dollars. Broken tib/fib=100K with evac.

The consequences a Rattlesnake bite can very quickly include loss of life or limb without treatment. Do not delay transport and treatment.

An educated guess is that the average Rattlesnake "Dry" Bite costs something to the tune of $20,000. An envenomation, requiring multiple doses of Cro-Fab and a hospital admission, would be quickly approaching the $100,000 mark. Throw in a backcountry helo evac ( which would be an appropriate call) and add $25- 50k.

Food for thought when considering being anywhere near know rattlesnake locations.

Not sure what I would do, but I would leave killing on the table.
 
Most professionals and herpetologist recommend against killing snakes unless absolutely necessary
Well of course they would recommend as such! What are they going to study if all the snakes are killed?! :eek:



Instead of all of the shades of grey dealing with the subject we either get "kill" or "don't kill" when the middle ground is filled with a ton of options. When the discourse spins in the black and white I think we actually escalate our risks instead of mitigating them.
In all seriousness: best response yet.
 
Thou shall not kill

Clearly, some people do not belong out in the desert/woods/canyons. I once set up the groover in great spot. Set up the hand soap, toilet paper, reading material, the works. I did not see the Diamondback three-four feet away. The first camper to the groover did. Scream! We all rushed in, took pictures. Eventually the snake tired of the notoriety and left. No problems. Remember, we are guests in their home. Let them be.
 
And in places like the Grand Canyon, killing ANY sort of wildlife is illegal.

It should also be mentioned that there are rattlers in GC that WILL stand their ground and/or become aggressive if provoked! I believe these are the Western Diamondback and Great Basin varieties. The Pinks are docile, and prefer to be left alone.

A little case study here, since we took out less than a week ago on the Grand:

16 days, 15 nights, no snake sightings. We didn't go looking for them either.
 
And in places like the Grand Canyon, killing ANY sort of wildlife is illegal.

It should also be mentioned that there are rattlers in GC that WILL stand their ground and/or become aggressive if provoked! I believe these are the Western Diamondback and Great Basin varieties. The Pinks are docile, and prefer to be left alone.

A little case study here, since we took out less than a week ago on the Grand:

16 days, 15 nights, no snake sightings. We didn't go looking for them either.
Illegal to kill snakes in many places outside of NPs. Completely illegal in Utah. Must have a license in ID. CO its illegal unless "necessary to protect life". Granted, I doubt any of those states or agencies would ever prosecute a rafter for doing what they think is right, no matter how lenient their definition of necessary remains.
 
Clearly, some people do not belong out in the desert/woods/canyons. I once set up the groover in great spot. Set up the hand soap, toilet paper, reading material, the works. I did not see the Diamondback three-four feet away. The first camper to the groover did. Scream! We all rushed in, took pictures. Eventually the snake tired of the notoriety and left. No problems. Remember, we are guests in their home. Let them be.
Just as long as everyone does the same for all of God's Creatures.
YellowJackets too.

Remember that rule in your back yard.
Your title to property doesn't work with nature.

Rager Ranger Station had three rattlers in their day care back yard.
They didn't do the we're all in this together thing. They killed 'em.
 
I know two people who were bitten, both were trying to capture or handle the snake. Best to leave them alone, keep tents zipped up when you are in their habitat. Black Widows worry me more, have seen many on rafting trips in camps, rocks, and in and around outhouses.
 
Such turmoil!

People stomping around camp in their Doc Martens, debating whether it's better to kill and be safe, or leave well enough alone and be at one with nature.
You know, be at peace with all the forest creatures while you enjoy your wilderness experience.
Meanwhile, they park their citified butts on their REI camp loungers, sipping their vintage wine, setting next to their wilderness aware 5 room tents, while waiting for their filet to cook on their imported camp stove, listening to music on their I Pod through their waterproof BOSE speakers, all powered by their pseudo solar fuel cells.

Wilderness my ass.

People;
Snakes and such have little interest in our affairs. We should not have much interest in their business. live and let live. If they do come at you, take the hint; you've probably managed to startle them somehow. Given a few moments they will certainly realize their mistake and vacate your space. No need for overreaction.

The only place we ever went ready to take on the wildlife was in Alaska, and we carried .44 carbines for the bears. The Ruger carbine I had was a 5 shot; I figured 4 for the bear and one for me if he proved persistent. We saw bears, but they never bothered us, and we saw no need to twist their tails. It all worked out just fine. Although one bear did make off with our popcorn one night. It was Blast O Butter popcorn, I couldn't fault the bear.
 
I have left many, many rattlers alone, but I would rather take the bad karma associated with killing a snake then the bad karma of leaving a rattler in a spot like Zoom. We were only scouting because it was the super low water year of 2012 and the group I was guiding down had never ran it that low. I have seen several when hiking in Browns and simply tried not to bother them. There is a distinction between the situations.
 
Just as long as everyone does the same for all of God's Creatures.
YellowJackets too.

Remember that rule in your back yard.
Your title to property doesn't work with nature.

Rager Ranger Station had three rattlers in their day care back yard.
They didn't do the we're all in this together thing. They killed 'em.
I get the sentiment but one caveat on the comparison....

Most snakes are protected species by most state laws, hymenoptera are not. Bugs have long been considered fair game by agencies (though that is changing with the loss of pollinating species the last decade or so). Also, most states require you to report a snake killing due to safety concerns. Though once again they are unlikely to care considering how understaffed most wildlife agencies truly are.

From your comments it seems safe to conclude you have killed quite a few snakes....so I am curious:

When do you decide to kill one compared to when, if, you decide to let one live? Do you differentiate between venomous and non-venemous when killing? How many have you killed on rafting trips? I ask as someone who has encountered countless venomous snakes in my years of rafting and desert guiding (in and out of NPS units). Its just such a foreign concept to kill snakes to me and I have rarely run into people who go beyond the desire to do so. When I had clients I did have to talk people down and educate them but never had anyone actually kill one. I raft with a lot of ecologist so that may skew my experience a bit. That said, I have considerable fear of the local variety having been defensively attacked by at least. Never been bit yet but had two recent times a pygmy faded rattlesnake strike at me while hiking. Both times have left me shaken and to be honest rather changed. But never gone from there to warranting killing them.
 
I kill every single snake I see and I don’t feel one ounce of remorse. Let us not forget that it was a talking snake that convinced a ribbed woman to eat fruit from the magical tree; therefore, cursing all mankind to a sinful soul that can only be lifted by symbolically eating the flesh and drinking the blood of a Jewish zombie who was his own father and telepathically accepting him as the unconditional leader of our enslaved sole. Or suffer the tormenting wrath of Satin on your soul for all of eternity. So, hell ya I will not rest until every drop of blood from the serpent’s offspring is put under Magwa’s knife.
 
Lets see - snakes follow their prey (mice). Mice follow their prey (rafters who keep a sloppy camp). Add in a little Hanta virus and you have the makings of a good time. One the other hand, if you all would help by keeping cleaner camps, there would be fewer of all of these.
 
From your comments it seems safe to conclude you have killed quite a few snakes....so I am curious:

When do you decide to kill one compared to when, if, you decide to let one live? Do you differentiate between venomous and non-venomous when killing? How many have you killed on rafting trips? I ask as someone who has encountered countless venomous snakes in my years of rafting and desert guiding (in and out of NPS units). Its just such a foreign concept to kill snakes to me and I have rarely run into people who go beyond the desire to do so. When I had clients I did have to talk people down and educate them but never had anyone actually kill one. I raft with a lot of ecologist so that may skew my experience a bit. That said, I have considerable fear of the local variety having been defensively attacked by at least. Never been bit yet but had two recent times a pygmy faded rattlesnake strike at me while hiking. Both times have left me shaken and to be honest rather changed. But never gone from there to warranting killing them.
I've killed two rattlers.
No other snakes.
I spent forty years as a wild land firefighter and I have a rough idea how many poisonous and non-poisonous snakes I've encountered. Easily over a hundred when including non-venomous snakes. Possibly approaching 200.
As mentioned in an earlier post I killed those two rattlers next to homes. That was the deciding factor. One was on the 1993 Malibu Fire near a decent set of homes. Two local residents were positive about that action but two co-workers were not.

I have run into numerous people, especially in the south and western rural settings who have no hesitation on killing poisonous snakes.
Only cruel kids who killed non-venomous is all I can remember hearing about. Like the kids who stomp cats to death.

Full disclosure;
I would have killed a water moccasin also in S Carolina near a home but he slithered into coffee mirky water and I was afraid to follow. They are fairly dark and he literally disappeared in one second.

I killed several lizards over the years trying to keep them in a screened wooden box. Flies, lettuce whatever. I failed.

I have picked up two non-venomous who peed on me.
Have never been struck at.
 
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