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I've seen this new style of boat called the river runner/creeker which is what the Wavesport Diesel and the Jackson Hero are called. They seem to differ from a normal creeker by having a flatter bottom for planing and rails for sharper turns. I think they also have less rocker?

I assume they aren't for hard core creekers who need a nice smooth rounded bottom for boofing and don't want the rails in squirly water.

Is the flat bottom of these boats for surfing? I assume you can only surf big waves with these boats and any tricks are pretty hard.

Anything else about these boats I'm missing?
 

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hey

Im not an expert on the Jackson hero, however, the diesel can surf both small and big waves. It is very forgiving, and can huck at the same time. You can check out some pics here:

http://www.localpaddler.com/gallery.php -then type in Wavesport Diesel under the search. Some of the biggest air loops I have ever seen were in the diesel.

Hope this helps~

Ben
 

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this concept isn't new. it started back in the late 90's with the Y & then the H2, & prolly some others that i'm spacing.

flat hulls are just bad for your back/spine when you're doing anything vertical. they boof fine, but land poorly. chines aren't a big deal in "squirrely water", but on the other medium that we deal with -- rock -- they suck. the H2 would get hung up on the downstream rail (often causing a late brace or even a flip) while making lateral moves across shallow creekbeds, esp. slides.

i'd assume that by calling these hybrid designs "river runners", the mfrs are hoping to fill a "versatility" niche to try to create a single design that will get by in most conditions for paddlers who (think they) are into that sorta thing. and .. to introduce planing/chine tech to paddlers who have not yet grown into that -- people who, for now, are only interested in downriver, eddie hopping, & attaining -- in the hopes that they will discover new opportunities for fun on the river ... and then they'll drop more loot on a real playboat.

big loops aside (more bouyancy = more "pop"), anyone who's tried to really freestyle a creekboat will tell you it's neither fun nor good for the shoulders.
 

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I am also looking at both these boats.

I have little interest in a play boat (have an EZ), I want a boat that will handle both River running and creeking (no 60 foot boofs).
How do these 2 boats handle real water?
Pros & cons of each?
 

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I had an H2 for awhile. It front-surfed alright on fast waves or catching things on the fly. The guy who owned it before me took it down OBJ and it worked for him. I didn't like it though because it didn't have enough rocker to pivot quickly or boof. It was great when you were solidly on your line, but get a bit off and have to adjust and it took a mighty sweep stroke to budge it. On bigger rivers with real CFS I thought it would have been a killer boat, but tight eddy hopping and steepness. . . I didn't have the skills to keep in on line. I now own an Embudo and I really like it. I tried the Creeker 225 and it was too spuddy for me. So, like it's been said a 1000 times before in this forum, the only way to know is try some boats on the types of runs you like to do.
 

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Another big difference is the strength of the plastic. Many river runners are not built with the strength/thickness plastics that are used in creek boats. If you're planning on running something steep and shallow, buy a creeker. If you're looking to run rivers, then a river runner might be the boat for you. Also the Dagger's new Mamba fits into the river runner catagory.
 

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So, you need a creeker for when you have shallow rocks or big drops.

Which runs in Colorado would you recommend a pure creeking boat for a good paddler, but a non-expert who can do all this cool stuff you see on videos?

Gore? Bailey? Escalante? Grizzly Creek? Upper SBC? Animas? Black Rock?
 

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I think there's a place for these river runners. It's in big, fast water that's too much for a playboat (whatever that means to you and your playboat), but doesn't have the rock/vertical drop aspects that demand a creekboat. Sure the creekboat will work, but it'll be corky holebait, not very maneuverable and no fun to surf on the huge waves that can be found in that sort of environment! So yeah, it may be a luxury, but there's room in my quiver for a riverrunner!

As far as cstork's list, I'd say:

Gore--Riverrunner
Bailey--Creeker @ low, riverrunner @ high
Escalante--Creeker
Grizzly Creek--Inflatable alligator
Upper SBC--Creeker
Animas--Riverrunner
Black Rock--Creeker @ low, riverrunner @ high
 

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Well in that case, you'd be better off leaving the 'gator at home and bringing your creeker!
 

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more money

You mean I need to get an Inflatable alligator now too!!!!
My GF is going to kill me she says I've already spent to much on this sport and still can't roll yet!!!!
 

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Man! if your GF is giving you crap about spending money now wait till you enter the next phase.
This is really a good discussion and I appreciate all the info. I had an H3 but thought it was just too big for most of the river runs in Colorado so I think I am going to downsize.
 

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I actually feel more stable in a Hoss or a little Joe than my Huck. I thought that the secondary stability was awesome and made the transitiion easy. If you are dropping less than 20 footers I like the hoss. It is also not to bad at south canyon especially at the lower flows.

Peter
 
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