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I'm leading a Boy Scout Venture Crew on an 11 self support kayak trip down Labyrinth and Stillwater Canyons this summer.
Our plan is for everyone to make their own PVC groover to store their wag bags in. The PVC groovers would be similar to what yaktube makes and what can be found on campingbykayak.com.
I'd like to get advice from y'all who have I'm leading a Boy Scout Venture Crew on an 11 self support kayak trip down Labyrinth and Stillwater Canyons this summer.
Our plan is for everyone to make their own PVC groover to store their wag bags in. The PVC groovers would be similar to what yaktube makes and what can be found on kayakcamping.com.
I'd like to get advice from y'all who have experience using PVC groovers on extended self support kayak trips. What diameter of PVC pipe and how long should the pipe be to store up to a 6 day's worth of used wag bags?
We will be resupplying at Mineral Bottom on day 5 of the trip and sending out our garbage and wag bags so we don't need something to store 11 day's worth of wag bags.

Any advice from you all is appreciated.



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sing PVC groovers on extended self support kayak trips. What diameter of PVC pipe and how long should the pipe be to store up to a 6 day's worth of used wag bags?
We will be resupplying at Mineral Bottom on day 5 of the trip and sending out our garbage and wag bags so we don't need something to store 11 day's worth of wag bags.

Any advice from you all is appreciated.



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I made a PVC groover for exactly this purpose. Mine is made out of 4" pipe and I'd guess it's about 18-24" long. I could measure later. It was barely large enough for me for a 4 night trip. A loaded wag bag does not compact down very well at all and the narrow tube makes it difficult to pack in. The whole setup just sucked, IMO. I'm not sure what size you'd need to make that work for a bigger load, but I would personally consider some other options. Maybe some 5 gallon buckets with gamma lids that are shared by the group. Then tie them down on the back of a kayak. If anyone will be in an inflatable, that would be a particularly good place to store them. I'm sure you can make the PVC work, but I just wasn't a fan of having to smash shit in there.
 

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Prolly depends on the age of the boy scouts but for adults 4" is the standard and the “rule of thumb” is 40 cubic inches per day. Think that is roughly 2" of length per day - multiple posts and videos on it.

Thought that was also a NPS requirement but haven't found that in the grand regs I am reading yet.
 

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I just built mine today but have been researching for a while. Here are the high points:


1. Google has an area of a cylinder calculator.
2. NPS regs for the Grand indicate 40-cubic-inches/day.
3. Some forum posts indicate that in the real world we use about half of that.
4. I've also seen estimates of 2" per day using 4" pipe.
5. There are different wall thicknesses for PVC pipes and fittings. The nominal size is based on the inside diameter but the pipes are sized to the outside so that fittings are interchangeable between pipes with different wall thickness. Some fittings are much heavier than others!



For the length of your trip and since price is presumably important, I'd use 4" DWV PVC pipe and fittings since they are fairly thin-walled, readily available and cheap. By my calcs, using 40-cubic-inches/day (since the poo will be in wag bags), that's 3-inches/day.


I built mine 17-inches long with 6-inch SDR-64 pipe and SDR-35 fittings. That should handle 14-days and I'm happy with the size/weight.


Let me know if you think of an ingenious groover wrench! Good luck!
 

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No taller than comfortable height for your scouts to sit on and big enough in diameter to hold a roll of TP. Should probably fit inside the kayak, between legs? I do not kayak so I'm not sure of storage space. Just asking, do you have to use wag bags or would something less bulky work?
 

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No taller than comfortable height for your scouts to sit on and big enough in diameter to hold a roll of TP. Should probably fit inside the kayak, between legs? I do not kayak so I'm not sure of storage space. Just asking, do you have to use wag bags or would something less bulky work?
No using the tube during the deed, only storage, wag bags for use then packed in tube. Agree with bcpnick that it’s not fun, but it works and have not really “liked” any groover setup but some are better than others. A foam cutout w/ string helps separate and pack down the used from new grooved supplies. Usually stored in front or rear pillar when kayaking, guessing just rigged and strapped for duckies.
 

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I just measured mine. It's 17" long, not counting the caps. It was a lot of work fitting 4 wag bags in there. They take up a lot more space than poop alone. I'd plan on at least 5" per deuce if it's in a wag bag.
 

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No using the tube during the deed, only storage, wag bags for use then packed in tube. Agree with bcpnick that it’s not fun, but it works and have not really “liked” any groover setup but some are better than others. A foam cutout w/ string helps separate and pack down the used from new grooved supplies. Usually stored in front or rear pillar when kayaking, guessing just rigged and strapped for duckies.

I just cannot wrap my brain around how to hover over a wag bag and make a accurate deposit. That is probably why I never started kayaking. I need an large target. Learned something new today. Tube is only for storage, not for deposit.
 

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11 people right? 5 nights means 55 uses and 11 means 121. Wag bags are incredibly inefficient for your trip. It sounds like they double the volume of the actual waste. How many canoes for 11 people? 5, 6, 7? You have a little room to work with.

I suggest it would be much more efficient overall to just bring a group toilet. I think the coyote is good for about 50 uses, and you may just be able to pull that off with one unit for both above and below your resupply. You can sacrifice a rocket box as a back up in case you run out of room at the end.

Even more importantly, make sure there is a convenient way for everyone to wash hands after toilet use and before all meals. It is worth the effort and space to have a bucket setup for the group. Hand sanitizer doesn't cut it, use soap and water and having a small bottle of bleach along will serve you well.
 

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I agree with the posts above--while it sounds like a great project for your boy scouts, it's also a project that likely sees only a single use.

(11) 4" groover pipes gets a bit spendy in terms of PVC fittings.
6" fittings are REALLY expensive, but 6" pipe also has over 2x the capacity per inch.

You might be better off to show your scouts more typical ethical group river camping techniques.
Pool your resources and buy a Coyote, or do a group project and build 3-4 6" pipe groovers. Maybe make a seat and poop directly in the pipe? Split into groups. A couple groups build 6" groovers, another group builds a bucket handwash station, another group assembles the dishwashing system, another group could build some river tables, another build a kitchen box...each group can give a presentation to the others on hygiene and the reason all these things are necessary.


Another option might be a rocket box + trash compactor bags + WAG bags.
 

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You mention it is a kayak self support so there may not room for a groover box. If there is a vessel with room for a groover of some sort it would be cost effective. Wag bags are $3+ a piece, and for 11 days that is 33 bucks per scout for bags alone, not including pvc parts. Depending on size of the group that will end up more costly than a basic groover. Assuming that budget is a factor I would agree with MT4runner's suggestion of either buying a coyote or having them construct a groover as a project, again this is space dependent.
 

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He said they are self support kayaking. Regular raft groovers won't work.

Wag bags have a big enough target within them. There is a bigger bag within the bag, part of the reason they are so bulky.

As mentioned, the wag bags themselves take up a bunch of space. I would plan on getting more than one turd in each wag bag. You can get 3-4 shits in each bag. I would set up a bag as a group shitter, close up the bag after 3-4 shits or when its looking dicey to get packed up, and stuff it in a tube. you'll get it figured out after a day or two. You could try it out at home and see what'll work. You can save a ton of space this way and only use 3-4 bags a day instead of 11. Kids that are afraid of shitting on someone elses shit can re use their own bags for a few days. They'll probably get over it pretty quick. I don't like the idea of re opening the bags but I've done it.

Also I would have the boys practice at home trying not to pee while they shit. A bunch of pee in wag bags could hose your storage plan in a hurry.

good on ya for getting them out there.
 

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What ZB said above ^^^^^ He knows his shit on the river :)

I just cannot wrap my brain around how to hover over a wag bag and make a accurate deposit.
I've always got a small bucket to splash down the raft and other stuff. Just put the wag bag into the bucket and fold the wide bag opening over the rim so it's got a big opening. Any bucket will do. The bucket stays clean and when you're ready to pack up it's easy and tidy. With single-night trips for only a couple of folks it just doesn't make sense to bring the full Ecosafe groover along.

-AH
 
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My bad, I didn't read it right and assumed canoes as the basis for my suggestion. I stand by my statement that 11 pvc tubes is inefficient.

Why not bring a couple canoes anyway for that purpose. I get the idea of training for self a contained trip, this wouldn't really detract from that, you are still going minimalist style.

And you can rent a Coyote.
 

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Agreed. a couple IK's, canoes or a raft would go along way to make it more pleasant on the leaders for sure. You can still go as minimalist as you want. Would also make it easier if one kid got hurt,etc if there wasn't a boat for every person on the trip. In the events where I have to deal with other peoples kids, I like to hedge my bets best as possible.
 

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Agreed. a couple IK's, canoes or a raft would go along way to make it more pleasant on the leaders for sure.
No kidding! The troop leaders could be having well-deserved beer and steaks while the scouts chow on Beanie Weenies! :)
 

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I have some “outside the box” tips. I do a lot of self support kayaking and I’ve found that a good plastic cookie jar or peanut butter container work well and I’m ot a fan if the heavy, bulky, expensive PVC tubes. I use commercial size coffee filters, like the ones used at convenience stores, as a catch pad that is placed on the ground when doing the duty. Next is the smallest and thinnest trash bags, like for office trash cans, or paper sandwich bags,which hold each days poop. I’m able to fit 4 days per Wag bag which cuts down on the cost and space of the Wag bags. It’s a little labor intensive but makes using the Wag bags efficient and cleaner than trying to go into the Wag bag itself.
 

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I have some “outside the box” tips. I do a lot of self support kayaking and I’ve found that a good plastic cookie jar or peanut butter container work well and I’m ot a fan if the heavy, bulky, expensive PVC tubes. I use commercial size coffee filters, like the ones used at convenience stores, as a catch pad that is placed on the ground when doing the duty. Next is the smallest and thinnest trash bags, like for office trash cans, or paper sandwich bags,which hold each days poop. I’m able to fit 4 days per Wag bag which cuts down on the cost and space of the Wag bags. It’s a little labor intensive but makes using the Wag bags efficient and cleaner than trying to go into the Wag bag itself.
Sounds like a good alternative, but one question: How well does it work taking it to a clean out at an RV dump or other sanitary facility, or do you just toss it into the dumpster or trash after you get off the river?

Thanks,

-AH
 

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Wouldn't putting it in a plastic bag before putting it in a wag bag negate the wagbags job? Then why use a wagbag at all? Seems like it would be impossible for the enzymes in the wagbag to do their job if they didn't have direct poo contact. That said, I've always thought it was funny that people worry about a little river trip poo untreated in landfills when there are millions of diapers thrown in each day.

I do like the idea of using some sort of container that is already built tho. Big peanut butter jars etc is a great idea even if you have to put a couple in each boat.
 
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