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Damn a Colorado pirate involved as well, an under cover sting, and the ever famous line of "We are all just friends out on the river together" - hahahahahahaha
 

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funny thing is i took my battle cruiser aka diesel65 and tried to take her down but she used her pirate training skills to as they say "sink my battle ship" what a ruthless blodd thirsty pirate that lady is..
 

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I think it is great after using the word "pirate" (which I suppose they are) about 20 times in the article that the officer's last name was Ransom. Very apt.
 

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Really I dont get how they are pirate? I thought that they were hijacking other boats while on the river and Taking Hot ladys for there own boat or something. I thought it was kind of a dumb story. imo
 

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Sounds like a few law enforcement officers need something better to do with their time. Yea yea.....I know they were breakin the law but seriously aren't there much more serious crimes going on in that area that are better deserving of tax payers time?

I'm just saying.....
Scotty V.
 

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I'm amazed that they set up a full-on sting operation. The small amount of drugs? Not so surprising. I think I may even know who one of the guys was; a few have been running those trips on the G for a long time.
 

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Curious

Let's do some math here. If I invest 5K in a boat with frame, soup to nuts and then fill it with beer, meatcicles, snacks, drive to the putin and someone wants a ride and I ask them to pay "their fair share of the ride" on my rig if they so choose, help out with the shuttle ride please, get on the water, No Warranties Implied Or Expressed, what would be a fair exchange in cash if there was one?

No pirateering desired, but what is considered quid pro quo without coming out ahead on behalf of the boater? What can a poaching rider expect as such without putting a boat owner into a compromising pirateering position? Is it legal to poach rides/ask for rides for fair exchange?

Oh crap. Never gave this much thought ...
 

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I think it depends on the jurisdiction, If I remember correctly there is specific language for the Grand Canyon and the Idaho river system on what defines a private trip and how cost sharing is figured.

From the Grand Canyon Regs:
Definition of a Noncommercial River Trip
A. Cost Sharing and Participatory Nature - All noncommercial river trips must be participatory in nature. Trip preparation, costs, and conduct of the trip must be shared by all members of the group. This includes logistics, food purchase, equipment assembly, transportation, vehicle shuttle, food preparation, and sanitation. Failure to comply will cause cancellation of the permit and may jeopardize any future applications by the trip leader and/or other trip members.

B. No Paid Participation - Collecting a fee (monetary compensation), payable to an individual, group, or organization for conducting, leading, or guiding a noncommercial river trip is not allowed. The trip leader should delegate responsibility (financial and otherwise) for various aspects of trip preparation and conduct. Trips may be considered noncommercial even though a member of the trip, within their normal scope of employment, receives a salary from an educational institution or non-profit organization to participate in the trip. This salary may not come directly through fees contributed by members of the party. No person may be hired or paid to participate in a trip under the noncommercial permit system.

C. Not For Profit – Noncommercial River Trips may not be used by any person or organization in any way to obtain a profit. Participating in advertising for a profit will result in the revocation of the permit.
Personally I think that when you bring $5k or $10k worth of gear on a trip that depreciation and wear and tear are reasonable expenses. As is some $$ for gas if you are trailering a boat for communal use. Of course if everyone is bringing a raft w/some group gear then it is a moot point - everyone is already cost sharing gear costs. But if you have a bunch of people riding in your raft or if you are supporting a bunch of kayakers asking that your cost of wear and tear on your raft/gear is included in group costs is quite reasonable.

I did the math on deprecation once and I forget the exact #'s, but it is a wide range like $25-$75 a day. It depends on a wide range of quantifiable variables like the service life of each item, maintenance and replacement costs, acquisition cost, residual value, and amortization model (front loaded vs. averaged). There is also a fair bit of educated guess work in the model - how often do you break or lose an oar? How long does a firepan last? How much is a ten year old life jacket worth if anything? How much group gear do you have? How many straps do you lose/replace each season?
 

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What a CROCK!!!!!!!!!!! I know one of these guy's and what the GAUSTAPO oops, I mean the D.N.R. did was pure entrapment. All I have to say is Hoist the JOLLY ROGER me Matey's. AAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

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Yeah, I don't know these guys, but I bet they care just as much about their clients as does any guide. The last bit of the article, clearly a quote is just an attempt to validate themselves as this clearly wasn't a job well done. Blah...
 

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Wow, had to re-read this to get refreshed on some details. It is hard to discern what the intent was. Sounds like the guys contacted the rafters and had to make several attempts to set a date....

This is a tough call. I have had to rent boats to do runs prior to getting my own. Due to my love of the sport I would contact friends that may want to do some trips with me. In these cases I have asked them to help reimburse for the rental fees and other costs incurred on the trips. My intent was never to make a profit, just to cover my expenses doing what I like. Sometimes, more often than not, I paid most the costs. When figuring costs I do not leave my costs out- i.e.- if I take five friends, I figure the total cost divided by six.There have been times when I would rent a boat for a weekend, get shorted on one day and the other group paid more than their cost for their trip. I have to say that I have never actually 'made money' in circumstances as these.

Now I have a boat and the gear to run trips with my friends. I am going to the river with my stuff. I bought enough stuff to take friends. My cost to go to the river is my cost. My crew-members now pay their permit fees, their travel fees, and gives me cash for the lunch that I bring for them. I bring the lunch because I like specific meals on the river, call me a control freak...it's TRUE! My friends get to enjoy a day on the river much cheaper than they used to on these trips. I never accept tips! (I do take bribes though-JK) I will let you by me a 'pop'.

I used to be a paid guide. I was never a 'pro'. I did it because that is what I liked and I could get on the water and afford to do so. I am in ski patrol for the same reason: the things I like to do cost bucks, if I like doing something I might as well make it as economically feasible as I can.

There have been times when I have had more friends wanting to get on the river than I could take. When this has happened I have recruited friends with guiding experience to help out. I have encouraged my friends to tip their guide in instances like these. What do you think about this practice? Is it honorable?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
The Pirates side of the story!

Here is the pirates own version of the now infamous incident as posted in the boater talk "raft zone".



BoaterTalk: RaftZone: DNR Nabs "Pirates"



Quote: ""There has been a lot of hub-bub lately about the "pirate" incident on the New River in Wv at the end of the season. Until now there has been only one side of the story that has been published... My name is Jim Lujan and this is my side of the story.
About the end of July I recieved a random phone call from a guy who claimed that while he was on an ATV tour he had talked to a guest that had been rafting recently. He told me that she had recommended me because she had a good time and that I was safe. He also told me that he had a crew working construction for him and that he wanted to reward by taking them rafting. The person that he claimed had recommended me was an actual guest I had taken down the river while on a commercial trip I had worked for Rivers Expidations.
He wanted to know how much it would cost to do a private trip because they wanted to be able to drink beer on the river and not be in a hurry. At his point I told him that he couldn't pay but I could accept a tip at the end of the trip to help cover cost. I didn't hear back from him for about 3 weeks. Meanwhile New River season is winding down and I was doing construction work getting ready for gauley season when I sustained a hernia.
After about 3 to 4 weeks after the initial call he calls me out of the blue once again wanting to go rafting. At this point I could no longer do the trip myself and asked if a buddy of mine could help me out. I thought I was doing a favor for a loyal guest so I wanted these guys to have a good time. He again asked how much it was going to cost and I told him since I wasn't going to be able to guide we woud have to come up with 20 to 30 bucks apiece in order to cover expenses.
That's where they got me.
Two days later 7 guys showed up up at the house around noon ready to go rafting. In that time a friend had arrived from Colorado and stopped by to visit. I talked her into helping me run shuttle and off we went. On the way to the river we stopped for beer at D and L Packette and we headed to the put in at Cunard.
Since there were 7 people, the girl helping with shuttle was talked into taking one of the guest in a shredder so we would have 2 boats instead of one. While the two of them were getting the boats ready I got everyone suited up and gave them the standard commercial rafting saftey speach.
When we were almost ready to leave the guy I had talked to on the phone comes up and hands me $200, said he didn't want to lose it on the river and that the other guys were prepared to leave a tip at the end. I took the money and no sooner did I see the DNR truck come pulling in. When I noticed the truck I quickley informed everyone that if asked by the DNR that nobody had paid and it was a shared expense trip if anything.
Reality soon hit when we were questioned by the DNR officer as to how well we knew the guys we were taking rafting, we were soon informed that all seven guy's were undercover. I admitted "you got me" at which point we were thourghly interriogated and searched. We were told that if we gave a written statement at the scene that we wouldn't be arrested and all we would have to do is to pay a fine for running a commercial trip without a license and for conspiracy to run a trip without a license. My raft and shredder were confiscated as well as helmets and pfd's and we were informed that they would be returned when the fine were paid.
The DNR recieved a grand total of less than $700 in fines. There were 11 DNR officers involved including all there top level officers. You do the math but it hardly seems as though it was good for the tax payers.
The artical that made the front page was full of mis representations. Such as we were arrested which we wern't. They also accused us of having shoddy equiptment, we had all type 5 pfds and a raft less than 7 seasons old that is in mint condition. The paper also said we didnt care about safety when all the necessary precautions were followed. There wasn't a single person cited for any "bowls" or for any other illeagle activities. Nor was the pirate ring involved in working in other states.
There so called confidential source is no secret. All the of the people involved all worked for the same former employer. Whatever his motivations are, the whole incident was initiated as a personal vendetta paid for at taxpayers expense.
And that's all I have to say about that."" Unquote....
 

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scooby450 - I think you are just fine. To me the line is advertising your services, falsely representing your self as an outfitter, and trying to get paid for the act of guiding. There is nothing illegal about renting life jackets and helmets at or below market rates, or counting your wear, tear and deprecation on your raft and other gear, or polling the cost of gas for all the trip vehicles (including your rig which is probably a truck or a vehicle with a trailer that doesn't get great gas mileage or seat many people). If your friends want to buy you dinner or some beer after the trip - or even give you a tip - as long as it isn't a requirement I think its fine.

Assuming Jim Lujan told the truth in his post I think he is a borderline victim here. If you use his estimate of $25 per person at 9 people (2 guides, 7 paddlers), that is a budget of $225. If the group used two vehicles to run the shuttle and drove each say 100 miles round trip (I really have no idea how many miles the Gauley shuttle is round trip of where the group met) at $.50 a mile that's $100 in gas and deprecation (last I knew the federal reimbursement rate was $.525 a mile). Lunch for 9 people at $7 each is $63. Deprecation on a raft and associated gear is about $50 a day depending on how you calculate it. Then add in for the shredder's deprecation for about $25. Also any river fees and takeout fees - I think they charge private at the upper G takeout. That's $238 plus the permit/takeout fees. He got $200 from them. $238 divided 9 ways is $26.44. So the guy who set it up and the two guides were about $40 in the hole, but should have been $53 in the hole of they were fully cost sharing. That's a partly $13 difference.

The other issue here is did he allow himself to be hired. It sounds like he sorta did, but $20-$20 to cover costs is a viable estimate of actual costs. The fact that he was contacted repeatedly sounds more like entrapment. It's one thing if he was out there offering his services to strangers or advertising trips that are not cost sharing - that is clearly pirate boating. Honestly it sounds to me like the big mistake was this - when the 7 guys showed up it should have been explained that the $20-30 was just covering mutually shared costs, that he was in no shape or form a commercial operator, and that it was a private trip. And the line about safety at the end of the article was pure yellow journalism.
 

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scooby450 - I think you are just fine. To me the line is advertising your services, falsely representing your self as an outfitter, and trying to get paid for the act of guiding. There is nothing illegal about renting life jackets and helmets at or below market rates, or counting your wear, tear and deprecation on your raft and other gear, or polling the cost of gas for all the trip vehicles (including your rig which is probably a truck or a vehicle with a trailer that doesn't get great gas mileage or seat many people). If your friends want to buy you dinner or some beer after the trip - or even give you a tip - as long as it isn't a requirement I think its fine.

Assuming Jim Lujan told the truth in his post I think he is a borderline victim here. If you use his estimate of $25 per person at 9 people (2 guides, 7 paddlers), that is a budget of $225. If the group used two vehicles to run the shuttle and drove each say 100 miles round trip (I really have no idea how many miles the Gauley shuttle is round trip of where the group met) at $.50 a mile that's $100 in gas and deprecation (last I knew the federal reimbursement rate was $.525 a mile). Lunch for 9 people at $7 each is $63. Deprecation on a raft and associated gear is about $50 a day depending on how you calculate it. Then add in for the shredder's deprecation for about $25. Also any river fees and takeout fees - I think they charge private at the upper G takeout. That's $238 plus the permit/takeout fees. He got $200 from them. $238 divided 9 ways is $26.44. So the guy who set it up and the two guides were about $40 in the hole, but should have been $53 in the hole of they were fully cost sharing. That's a partly $13 difference.
Ah, but the gas was already in the trucks, they already owned the rafts, they had the day off, and they needed the cash to get their drugs fix. I doubt they were losing money, and $200 is pretty good cash for piracy. They definitely weren't all friends...

Homie shouldn't have said "you got me," shouldn't be writing accounts of this on the web, and shouldn't be pirating. He got caught. Tough shit.

Many of us make our livings working for commercial outfitters (at least part of the year), and couldn't do so without a little law enforcement to protect those licenses our employers put their houses up as collateral for. And that's just what this was, "a little laws enforcement." A relatively small fine, some news exposure, discussion on message boards, and ultimately less guides trying to strike out on their own without the requisite insurance or oversight.

And $700 in fines for a 10 man operation doesn't really bother me. I don't think the fine has to offset the cost of enforcement to have law enforcement. That's what taxes are for.
 
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