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Oar Lock Position

16K views 44 replies 18 participants last post by  carvedog 
#1 ·
A friend just got a new frame for his cat, and he set it up with passenger seat in the rear, and captain's seat about center. His oarlocks are about one third back from front of the boat. Looks kinda funny. Made a test run down the San Miguel. He loved the control. I have always had my oarlocks centered, but am considering moving them forward, maybe a foot or so. What do you think of this? Where do you guys have your oarlocks positioned?



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#2 ·
A friend just got a new frame for his cat, and he set it up with passenger seat in the rear, and captain's seat about center. His oarlocks are about one third back from front of the boat. Looks kinda funny. Made a test run down the San Miguel. He loved the control. I have always had my oarlocks centered, but am considering moving them forward, maybe a foot or so. What do you think of this? Where do you guys have your oarlocks positioned?
How much during the test run did he row forward (bow downriver) vs. back (stern downriver)? I like the ability to have the same control no matter what direction I'm facing. It's also the reason I like a my rig set up in a symmetrical fashion and balanced front to back.
 
#4 ·
Elkhaven - yea - sorry, I should have pointed out that I'm running a raft and not a cat - so I'm sure that would make a difference. Of course there are folks that run stern rigs on rafts as well - but probably more prevalent when additional paddlers are there.
 
#9 ·
What catflipper said. Oarlocks forward seems OK for a lightly loaded cat, especially with pushing strokes. But I have seen many cats attempt the MFS with the oarlocks forward and a heavy load in the rear. Most of them loose control after a few pulling back strokes, spin and end up going backwards down the rapids.
 
#8 ·
Being a novice I KNOW almost nothing, but here is what I've HEARD (and it does seem logical):

If you are mostly pushing the oars, front of center is good placement; if you are mostly pulling, back of center is better (relates to why the wheels that turn are in the front of a car?).

Of course that leaves the question of why mostly push or why mostly pull?
Novice speculation: When running big water with a lot of force, you may need to pull more (more powerful stroke); when the water has less force, pushing will often get you where you need to get to.
 
#11 ·
Max I think your friend will like rowing in the forward seat. I sure have.

Johnovice, on your question of why mostly push or pull - I feel it is better, bolder, more refined form to be charging your way through the meat than to go down rivers in a constant avoidance mode. Personally I'm going to rig my cat to give advantage to my style of running.

Even with oarlocks pretty far forward, the back stroke is still stronger. Forward position makes it a little harder to steer when going backward. With regard to spinning quickness, centered oarlocks are the best, but within a few feet does not seem to make a giant difference. Weight DOES make a giant difference. Try to load dense things in the middle of the boat.
 
#12 ·
Things I learned while rowing pig boats

1) The power is in pulling, not pushing.
2) Point your nose to the problem.
3) If you are pushing more than pulling you're doing it wrong.
4) You are not more powerful than the river. Ever.
5) A good boatman will consistently keep the flat side down.
6) It's a good day on the river when you arrive at camp dry and rested.
7) Cold beer and dry gear makes everyone happy.
8) When rules 5, 6, and 7 are followed it's been a great day on the river.
 
#18 ·
Things I learned while rowing pig boats

1) The power is in pulling, not pushing.
2) Point your nose to the problem.
3) If you are pushing more than pulling you're doing it wrong.
I call BS on all the above. It all depends on what you are doing. The OP is in a cat too, not a pig boat. Takes more skill to push things at high water as you have to really know what and how fast you can move. The power to move the move the boat may be in pulling, but the power to work with the river is in the pushing. Nose to the problem only works in pulling. And if you are pulling backwards downstream....well you can't see too well.

Schutzie will clarify;
The lessons I learned are for rowing, not paddling, not Kayaking. There are different lessons I learned for those rigs.
(I.E. when you are a kayaker you should always take the last beer, cause, you know, you're a kayaker and you wear a skirt.:))

If you're doing it right you rarely have to push while rowing; when you do push it's generally to correct an over zealous pull you just did.

I will gladly give my last beer to Dave Frank every time. Cuz you know he is a kayaker who pushed my boat through Dagger Falls when I wasn't feeling well. And greased it so nice.

Not sure the hangup with pushing but try not pushing on a low water technical river like the Middle Fork Salmon and I will leave you in the dust. Stuck and crying in your beer. Until I want to fish.
 
#13 ·
I assumed the little cats that sit farther forward was so they don't get back-endered while running the $hit, but I've mainly rowed round boats with centered oars.

As mainly a kayaker I like to push through stuff. I pull when I need to ferry away from rocks or holes, but any stroke that can be done forward, I do forward. Obviously a rower is stronger when pulling, so if a big ferry is needed, you should be pulling.

I see way too many rafters constantly rowing upstream, which is dumb on many levels. It slows the boat and makes it more likely to flip in wave trains, and slow boats annoy me if they manage to get in front and make me back row to stay off their tail. Scared kayakers tend to do this in class V as well and make the group clustered too close.
 
#16 ·
Schutzie will clarify;
The lessons I learned are for rowing, not paddling, not Kayaking. There are different lessons I learned for those rigs.
(I.E. when you are a kayaker you should always take the last beer, cause, you know, you're a kayaker and you wear a skirt.:))

If you're doing it right you rarely have to push while rowing; when you do push it's generally to correct an over zealous pull you just did.

The exception is when you hit the waves; pushing through them should pretty much keep you from getting into trouble and helps to keep you on your line. That is, unless you shouldn't have been on that wave in the first place. You know, cause it's bigger, faster, tougher and meaner than you are.

When I was rowing the pigs it was simple survival to accurately read the current. I wanted to be in it almost without exception, cause, you know, the current ended up doing all the work while I could just enjoy the ride. And a beer. It became a contest I'd have with myself, see how few strokes I could take in a day. My personal best was 18 strokes, from pump house to the bench, on a trip with a group nurses. And 12 of those strokes were to launch or land.:cool:
 
#15 ·
On a cat I find it more important to center the weight than the oar towers.

So on a small solo cat with ne gear the rower sits center and the towers are front of center. That is Idaho style.

On a raft I center the oar towers, generally because the balance is way less important and you are heavier and need the easier spin.

On a multi day trip you can usually juggel gear so that both are centered for maximum river nirvana.
 
#17 ·
Schutzie speaks the truth. I learned the "pull away from danger" thing early on. Then someone told me I was back ferrying my way down the river too much, and encouraged me to learn a forward push. Then I was forward pushing too much, and needed to go back to more pulling. I have put myself in a few bad spots by trying the muscle my boat with a forward push. A mixture of the two is best. The real trick is knowing when to use each one.

As far as oar position, I always liked a more centered position on my cat. My buddy has his cats set up to row from the front. He and his kids like that method. I tried it once and didn't care for it. It felt like "the tail wagging the dog" to me. Different strokes for different folks. If you can, try both on a day run and see what you like.
 
#24 ·
Funny!
What i learned rowing was what I learned.
I'm not here to tell anyone they're doing it wrong, only to share what I learned that worked for me.
You can push a lightly loaded cat, and most of the time you HAVE to push it, cause otherwise the damn thing, or the river GOD will bite you right in the ass.
Trying to push a pig boat is kind of like trying to push your busted truck up Eisenhower; lots of grunting and cussing, but not much movement.

The secret in all cases is working with the current to get where you want to get; whether a paddle boat of little old ladies in tennis shoes, a "Ferrari kayak" or a big fat pig loaded up like Parris Hilton's luggage cart.

In the end, no matter how big and strong and GODLY you are as a boatman, you ain't more powerful than the river. Ever.

In my humble opinion, the real skill comes in getting it right. You know, keeping the flat side down. All the rest is pretty much for show.

And as my betters often pointed out to me;
beware wet boatmen and skinny cooks.
 
#21 ·
I learned the value of a down and across ferry this year- after eating shit at Skull at 18K. When the river is really hauling, you'll make better progress by working with the current, not fighting it. I needed to make a 135 degree pivot and row like hell- but I tried to back-ferry and the power of the current overwhelmed me and pulled my back ferrying ass right into the meat. Swim Team!

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#22 ·
Getting back to the OP's query, I have been using a trailer frame with my cat on multi-day trips. I had DRE make one with a foot bar and I run it at the front of the boat. When it's all rigged it cheats the main frame back and the oar towers are close to center. I guess it's more of a "leader" frame.
 
#23 ·
Thanks for all the responses, informative and entertaining. I have always had mine dead center, probably leave 'em there. May experiment with moving them forward a foot or so - possibly a little quicker turning when pointed downstream and pushing, without really effecting pulling and spinning.


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#26 ·
My SD Puma has the oars pretty much center. My cat I preferred to row with me in the center. Our new Expedition Cat has a trailer frame that we rigged as a leader frame on the Grand, which put oars pretty much center, but without it (i.e. lighter) we would be rowing a fair bit forward. We will be testing that setup over Labor Day.

When I was a guide (Lower Animas) there was always pressure to make time so that the guides could have lunch, or have a quick break before the next trip. As the water came down this was best accomplished by pushing so that the sleeper rocks that needed to be avoided were easily seen. I also think the passengers are more comfortable looking downstream.

Momentum is my friend, so long as it is in the right direction. I find it easier to maintain the right direction and T things up when looking downstream (pushing). I kind of suck at the downstream pulling ferry :oops:.
 
#27 ·
Schutzie thinks you are just being silly now.

I never said "only use a pull stroke"

I said, "if you're pushing more than pulling you're doing it wrong".
In reference to a pig boat, I'd love someone to tell me I'm wrong.
In fact, I'd love to see the pig boat guide that was successful at pushing his rig much at all.

Maybe our problem is what we define as Pig boat........
"17 foot Maravia with four dry boxes usually with kitchen, large cooler and 70 lbs of camera gear in addition to my personal bar which fills one side box and a boom box with extra 12 volt battery"

Does not qualify in my book as a pig boat. Lightly loaded touring rig maybe, but not a pig boat.;)

But regardless, I learned, and still maintain, that a pull stroke is more powerful and in most cases, more useful than a push stroke.

This is not to say a push is to be avoided always. A push stroke has it's place. It's not as powerful, so it takes more to accomplish something but still has a place.

Now, shall we move onto your problem with my "blanket statement"

You are not more powerful than the river. Ever.

Or, shall we continue this increasingly useless discussion?
 
#31 ·
I don't want to start another pissing match with you Osseous, but I don't think anyone here has said that pushing is as strong as pulling, just that it is frequently necessary, much more so than Shutzie is professing. That is what I'm arguing for. When I need power I want to be set up to pull, but committing your boat full on to a pull all the time is going to get you in trouble. I've learned that the hard way...
 
#29 ·
Wrong is generally a matter of perspective.

Sorry Schutzie while you don't literally say never to push, you sure do STRONGLY imply that you shouldn't. Lots of people push more than they pull, they are NOT doing it wrong. So your generalized statement is "that pushing more than pulling is WRONG", not "you're never stronger than the river, ever". Most of your stories are similar; Big boats in big water and you profess to go with the flow let the river do the work...I understand that I'm generally that way too. It just simply doesn't work that way as often on smaller rivers, you find the need to move in various directions with out the time to spin to your strongest stroke. So in reality most folks find themselves pushing as much as pulling and surprisingly they get down the river safely and efficiently.

Shutzie, be wary of your blanket statements as carvedog indicated they typically say more than you obviously realize.
 
#30 ·
Being able to reconfigure the cockpit position in the boat is quite a luxury. It occurs to me that it is something you only seem to see cats experimenting with. Oval boat frames are simpler, you should see more owners doing mods. Head scratcher.

Oval boat owners less likely to think outside the box as a group?
 
#32 ·
I move my cockpit around a lot. It just depends on the cargo. How many fisherman in the boat? How many floor platforms do I want to run? Is the river bony? Do I want my anchor? How often do I want to open the main cooler? So on and so forth. The modular frames are awesome for that.
 
#33 ·
I don't change the whole frame around a lot but I can row from either my rowers seat or the cooler. My locks are fairly close to the middle of the captains bay so I can go either way. I haven't tried it in the heat of the moment yet and I'm not sure I won't think of it until I force myself to try it more. But as for Osseous issue above I wonder if I couldn't have switched seats, 45 degree pivot and been pulling downstream and away from the problem (obviously I don't know the whole situation but I can envision a few places where that might work if I screwed up above). I'm going to have to keep that in mind and play with it.

I can also stand and row which I like, but it's not second nature yet so I don't get as much power unless I'm really thinking about my oar stroke.

I just work on balancing the boat, my locks are center but on overnighters I have two coolers and 3 people up front to counter balance me, the dry box and the gear pile... It sure feels like I'm balanced the way I want (slightly front heavy if possible).
 
#34 ·
As far as rowing goes, I think there is a time to pull and a time to push.

For me, at least 90 percent of the time I push. And I do my best not to have to push very hard. For the situations where I miscalculated or need to do a stern downstream ferry or pull away from a hazard, the answer is a double oar spin to do the pull off the danger move.

When I first started rowing, all my buds did the point the bow and pull off the danger deal and so did I. Since we all did it, progress down river was the same.

Then as I progressed and made my first Middle Fork float, a very experienced oarsman observed that one reason I was so tired at day's end was I rowed about twice as much as he did. Never forget that time when the light bulb flashed on. He was also always out front of the group just coasting along. I began to think about getting boat and current in sync, just did not understand all the tricks of the trade.

Then I went to guide school out in Oregon where the big boys and girls row the big stuff.

Yepper, the real learning came when my turn to row the big 18 ft loaded to the max gear boat came along.

I knew about momentum but it really came home to me when the instructor lounging in the bow observed that if I wanted to make it to camp before dark I should stay out of eddies along the way and read the current (even in the flats).

He told me to find current going the way I wanted to go, get into and stay with that current. Keep the boat aligned so the momentum worked to increase speed and angle. Also that the best route down stream was not always in a straight line.

Next he showed me how to anticipate and make small correction oar strokes to work with the raft and the current. Not to wait till I got off line and had to do the back breaking pull strokes.

I learned that by watching my momentum, finding and staying in the current that worked for me, making small corrective push strokes early in the game and facing down stream so I could see and follow that current - that once I got ole Biscuit going her weight kept her going even in the boils and funny water. Every once and a while my now napping instructor would rise up and say "spin around to the right now!" just in case I screwed up and had to pull, he wanted me well trained in the spin move.

Along the way he taught me how to get ole Biscuit going down stream stern first and to tuck that stern into a eddy and spin her in her length to get by tightly spaced rocks where it looked like zero ways to get by.

I find by using these techniques and looking down stream, I rarely have to really push hard and if I do on rare spots on the river, need to pull then the double oar spin move is the way to go for a few pull strokes then double oar spin back to my down stream facing position.

My best rowing stroke is to have both oars tucked under my legs leaving my hands free to hold a beverage of choice while the current speeds my raft down river.

By using these techniques I am usually one of the faster boats in the group and do the least work.

There is a lot of technique things that make rowing even a pig boat easier and I feel the real good advice is to find out all the things you can about rowing and do what works for you, your raft and the river you are on.

Even tho I live in the flat lands, I grew up boating the steeps up and down the appalachian streams, moved out here and found UT-NM-AZ-CO-ID in rafts. The time I spent getting trained by those folks out in Oregon is the stuff that changed me from a pull off the danger all the time oarsman to a "find current going where you want go to forward facing oarsman who was taught how to dance with the river not fight it"

life is good and any time spent on a river is good time. Just better when you can see where you are going not where you have been.

flame on!
 
#44 ·
As far as rowing goes, I think there is a time to pull and a time to push.


My best rowing stroke is to have both oars tucked under my legs leaving my hands free to hold a beverage of choice while the current speeds my raft down river.

By using these techniques I am usually one of the faster boats in the group and do the least work.


flame on!
Okieboater has done a fine job of detailing what I was trying to say, ...........I deleted most of what he said to avoid making this thread longer than it already is, but it is a fine read and everyone can learn from it.

Except that I still push more than pull.

I would only comment that there appears to be the misassumption that if you pull a lot, and point your nose to the trouble, that you are doing a down stream ferry a lot. For my part that is incorrect; I rarely did down stream ferry. I hate downstream ferry.

A lot has been made about "bony creeks" where pushing is required; again, in my experience, bony or otherwise, a push is generally preferable to a pull.

That's my way anyway; you do what works for you.
Okieboater nailed it though; read the current and understand how it will effect your boat, then take advantage of it.

Or, flail away; whatever works for you.

Of all the river sections I ran this was never more critical than in Bucks Alley on the Dolores. It's basically gone now, but as a challenge to a guide, Bucks alley was it. A misjudgement would put you firmly wrapped around an unforgiving rock, pinned under a ledge, or jammed like a cork in a champagne bottle. There was no muscling things around; you had to have your line clearly in your mind and you had to stay several steps ahead of the boat and the current or pay a horrible price.
It was one place where "bony" and big water applied equally. You were picking your way through a massive rock garden, but doing it in fast moving, deep water. Pushing for anything but fine tuning your line or angle would simply not get you where you needed to be and wear you out.

Enough; I'd love to get on with some dedicated pushers, see maybe we could learn from each other.
 
#35 ·
Now that's how you offer advice! Great piece there Okieboater. My one comment is its not always desirable to be the first one down so I use those eddies, boils, etc. to slow down while fishing. Of course it's all about what your into for each trip. But when making time, follow the thalweg, when dragging your feat, eddy (slow-water) hop. I got really good at slithering down the last day of the Smith employing many of your techniques.

What I relate to most is: "My best rowing stroke is to have both oars tucked under my legs leaving my hands free to hold a beverage of choice while the current speeds my raft down river." I'd modify the last bit to say "while the current drags me along at my preferred pace"... since you know I might want to fish while holding one of those beverages.
 
#36 ·
"so I use those eddies, boils, etc. to slow down while fishing. Of course it's all about what your into for each trip" as posted by elkhaven.

Agree with the above.

Remember I was trained to row by men and women who all summer long make a Rogue or similar river trip once a week. These folks are interested in either giving their custies a scenic ride complete with story telling along the way or getting the gear boat down to the next camp with the least expenditure of muscle power at speed.

They have by experiencing it over and over, figured out how things work.

Been blessed to make a number of Middle Fork and similar beautiful Idaho / Montana trout streams floats. I see those grizzled ole fishing guides (most often with a big cowboy hat) holding their drift boats in perfect balance while the sport casts into a spot. Or in the middle of a rapid, they just seem to dance down slowly hitting all the fishy hiding places along the way.

These oarsman like the same area's back country pilots are a special breed, few and far between and to be admired for their skill set and knowledge of the river or air space they work in. Sigh, to us flatland boaters they call it "work" - we just get to drive, experience heaven for a week or so, then it's back to rolling hills and dodging tornadoes in the spring!!!

Life is indeed good along the River, no matter where it is located.
 
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