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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Just gonna leave this here, photo taken June 19th I believe:

Plant Plant community Ecoregion Boat Vegetation


William Shott, Superintendent
Glen Canyon National Recreation Area
691 Scenic View Road, P.O. Box 1507,
Page, AZ 86040
Phone:928 608-6200
Email: [email protected]

For the record, I retrieved the preceding contact info from this website: View Rule , which doesn't have anything to with rafting.
 

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So, how/where are people taking out? I was planning a Cat trip in August, but there is no way we're going to be able to takeout if it looks like this. Is Cat simply not runnable anymore??

Good lord.
 

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There was a hand-carry ramp available to looker's left of the chewed-away "ramp." One commercial group was able to get a snout rig out on roller tubes but it wasn't easy. Most of us de-rigged and hand carried.
 

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Your tax dollars not being spent. Lots of government entities have had their budgets slashed. NPS, BLM, FS have all seen major “defunding”. It’s looking more likely that outdoor recreation will go to the pay to play model. I’ll play. I will give a hunskie towards fixing that ramp. Who else is in and how do we do it?
 

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Good questions. In Aug at 3-4000 (maybe more if you get a monsoon flow) that's gonna be 15 feet tall. The two different agencies have been pointing the finger at each other to fix it for a while now. Get the popcorn ready.
1) There aren't "two different agencies" - Canyonlands (Cataract) and Glen Canyon National Recreation Area (North Wash/Hite) are both National Park Service, funded from the same appropriation. My understanding is that GCNRA has chosen to prioritize funding for ramp access on the lake, i.e., Bullfrog/StateLine/possibly fixing re-opening others (Wahweap/Halls Crossing, etc.). Canyonlands has their hands full/money spent trying to deal with HUGE increase in use&visitation as folks recreate in "post-Covid" (lull or lasting...) times...

2). The ramp at North Wash has already been relocated once (2020/2021), w/fill dug out from the old (downstream 20 yards) used to construct the new (pictured). The sediment (aka "Dominy Layer") there is poorly compacted, inherently unstable, and slicker than gooseshit if it rains. It also slumps in unpredictable manner, i.e., water infiltration is soaked up/spreads laterally at different rates and results in different densities. I'm no soils engineer nor even passing acquaintence w/ geo but I've spent a fair amount of time w/shovel in hand and have modest history with the reservoir and its rock... first paddled from Halls to Moqui Canyon in 1969 on Prescott College orientation and we were warned then "stay away from the walls" as reservoir was filling and rock was calving, sometimes spectacularly...

3) Bullfrog North (aka "Executive Ramp") recently re-opened (two lanes, according to website). Just about exactly 50 miles from North Wash... if Halls more convenient, don't think there would be any problem taking out rafts there (supposedly only open to "paddle-powered" craft). No idea about snouts/sport boats...

4) Depending on the kindness of strangers ('Streetcar Named Desire"/Tennessee Williams) isn't a plan. If it rains on North Wash takeout you will not... or it will take 3-4 times as long as whatever you think.

5) There's no "...teaming up with commercials..." Only ones I know of running Cat are Scarey Griffith and Mild to Piled. They take care of their own, good idea to do the same...

Whatever you do, be safe and plan ahead. I'm not unhappy to see Cat get a respite after the increase in use over last 3 years...[/QUOTE]
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
funded from the same appropriation
That's not really how it works. GCNRA and CANY are in separate management groups, separate regions, and have entirely separate budgets. Concessionaire fees from one can't be spent on the other. Aramark doesn't exist at North Wash. Aramark is GCNRA's only concessionaire, therefore GCNRA doesn't care what happens at North Wash.

This is made apparent by GCNRA's FY23 budget proposal for a 72 million dollar water system rehab at Wahweep using GAOA funding, and not even an attempt by GCNRA to get GAOA funding for North Wash. I read that Greenbook @sarahkonamojo posted last night.
 

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1) There aren't "two different agencies" - Canyonlands (Cataract) and Glen Canyon National Recreation Area (North Wash/Hite) are both National Park Service, funded from the same appropriation. My understanding is that GCNRA has chosen to prioritize funding for ramp access on the lake, i.e., Bullfrog/StateLine/possibly fixing re-opening others (Wahweap/Halls Crossing, etc.). Canyonlands has their hands full/money spent trying to deal with HUGE increase in use&visitation as folks recreate in "post-Covid" (lull or lasting...) times...

2). The ramp at North Wash has already been relocated once (2020/2021), w/fill dug out from the old (downstream 20 yards) used to construct the new (pictured). The sediment (aka "Dominy Layer") there is poorly compacted, inherently unstable, and slicker than gooseshit if it rains. It also slumps in unpredictable manner, i.e., water infiltration is soaked up/spreads laterally at different rates and results in different densities. I'm no soils engineer nor even passing acquaintence w/ geo but I've spent a fair amount of time w/shovel in hand and have modest history with the reservoir and its rock... first paddled from Halls to Moqui Canyon in 1969 on Prescott College orientation and we were warned then "stay away from the walls" as reservoir was filling and rock was calving, sometimes spectacularly...

3) Bullfrog North (aka "Executive Ramp") recently re-opened (two lanes, according to website). Just about exactly 50 miles from North Wash... if Halls more convenient, don't think there would be any problem taking out rafts there (supposedly only open to "paddle-powered" craft). No idea about snouts/sport boats...

4) Depending on the kindness of strangers ('Streetcar Named Desire"/Tennessee Williams) isn't a plan. If it rains on North Wash takeout you will not... or it will take 3-4 times as long as whatever you think.

5) There's no "...teaming up with commercials..." Only ones I know of running Cat are Scarey Griffith and Mild to Piled. They take care of their own, good idea to do the same...

Whatever you do, be safe and plan ahead. I'm not unhappy to see Cat get a respite after the increase in use over last 3 years...
[/QUOTE]
MT Sobek and Scary Flippit are both running cat, and were taking out at NW.. Not sure if that's still the case.
 

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Uhmmm... that's exactly how it works. The statement was "different agencies," which is false. And "agencies" (departments in this case) are free to re-program appropriated funds unless specifically prohibited in the appropriation language. Concessionaire fees normally accrue to the jurisdiction where they are generated, that's true. Why would Aramark pay for improvements to a ramp used to EXIT their area of business?

Cat concessionaires (commercial companies) pay a fee to Canyonlands for each passenger they take down. It's pretty modest (used to be $15 per but that's way back in the 80's...). Those fees don't begin to cover ranger patrols/inspections let alone cost of maintaining presence at the Big Drops during "high" water. Same for private fees.

Bottom line is there's no money for takeout improvement. Closure of Hite store/gas pump means even fewer visitors down there - and that's not all bad.
 

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Uhmmm... that's exactly how it works. The statement was "different agencies," which is false. And "agencies" (departments in this case) are free to re-program appropriated funds unless specifically prohibited in the appropriation language. Concessionaire fees normally accrue to the jurisdiction where they are generated, that's true. Why would Aramark pay for improvements to a ramp used to EXIT their area of business?

Cat concessionaires (commercial companies) pay a fee to Canyonlands for each passenger they take down. It's pretty modest (used to be $15 per but that's way back in the 80's...). Those fees don't begin to cover ranger patrols/inspections let alone cost of maintaining presence at the Big Drops during "high" water. Same for private fees.

Bottom line is there's no money for takeout improvement. Closure of Hite store/gas pump means even fewer visitors down there - and that's not all bad.
And then there's the whole private / public ownership of the land, to do much of anything would require at least an EA, and at most an EIS, but from what TBerry said a while back, there's private land between the public land and that creates it's own pecadillo..
 

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1) There aren't "two different agencies" - Canyonlands (Cataract) and Glen Canyon National Recreation Area (North Wash/Hite) are both National Park Service, funded from the same appropriation. My understanding is that GCNRA has chosen to prioritize funding for ramp access on the lake, i.e., Bullfrog/StateLine/possibly fixing re-opening others (Wahweap/Halls Crossing, etc.). Canyonlands has their hands full/money spent trying to deal with HUGE increase in use&visitation as folks recreate in "post-Covid" (lull or lasting...) times...

2). The ramp at North Wash has already been relocated once (2020/2021), w/fill dug out from the old (downstream 20 yards) used to construct the new (pictured). The sediment (aka "Dominy Layer") there is poorly compacted, inherently unstable, and slicker than gooseshit if it rains. It also slumps in unpredictable manner, i.e., water infiltration is soaked up/spreads laterally at different rates and results in different densities. I'm no soils engineer nor even passing acquaintence w/ geo but I've spent a fair amount of time w/shovel in hand and have modest history with the reservoir and its rock... first paddled from Halls to Moqui Canyon in 1969 on Prescott College orientation and we were warned then "stay away from the walls" as reservoir was filling and rock was calving, sometimes spectacularly...

3) Bullfrog North (aka "Executive Ramp") recently re-opened (two lanes, according to website). Just about exactly 50 miles from North Wash... if Halls more convenient, don't think there would be any problem taking out rafts there (supposedly only open to "paddle-powered" craft). No idea about snouts/sport boats...

4) Depending on the kindness of strangers ('Streetcar Named Desire"/Tennessee Williams) isn't a plan. If it rains on North Wash takeout you will not... or it will take 3-4 times as long as whatever you think.

5) There's no "...teaming up with commercials..." Only ones I know of running Cat are Scarey Griffith and Mild to Piled. They take care of their own, good idea to do the same...

Whatever you do, be safe and plan ahead. I'm not unhappy to see Cat get a respite after the increase in use over last 3 years...
[/QUOTE]
OK bud. Different divisions. Semantics.
 
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