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Discussion Starter #1
Arright...another creek boat thread. Thinking of selling the CFS for one of these two. Here is my line of thinking on creek boats:

1 - The CFS is the second best creeker ever made
2 - A CFS that is 8'2"-8'4" would be the best creeker ever made
3 - The thing that makes this boat so good is that it has about 2 feet of rail under the seat -- the boat carves into eddies and ferries like a playboat, but the stern is rounded and doesn't catch on rocks.
4 - My creek boat should be a seamless transition from my playboat - I should not have to worry about adjusting my paddling style when I put in on a creek.
5 - Perhaps most importantly, my creek boat must not blow downstream easily when ferrying, like displacement hulls do.
6 - Finally, I really don't want a full-rail like the H3, Diesel or Embudo. While the turning performance would be fine, I don't care to hang up on rocks on my stern.

In the past I have owned a Micro 250 (hated it), a Blunt (thought it was acceptable) and now a CFS (love it, but I want more speed and carrying capacity). I did paddle a Nomad 8.5 prototype down Sec. IV of the Chattooga and down Talullah back in fall of 2003, but I recall very little of it. I liked the Nomad ok, but it lacks the rail of the CFS and eddies very differently. I don't recall how it ferries, but I want to be able to easily keep my bow upstream when doing critical ferries like those in Frankenstein (Green Narrows) and Supermax (if I ever get my gumption back up and run it again). I plan to demo, of course, but I value the opinions of other who have paddled them. What does everyone think?
 

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Hey check this out. It is from a guy I paddled the embudo with last year and spends alot of time near the taos neighborhood of steep paddlin'.
I have been looking at a huka to bridge the gap between my old micro230 and a Jefe. I am looking for a little more tracking and volume with same manuverability. I would love to get a Jefe, but don't want to pay the price for this years LL boat when i can get a huka for much cheaper. Price seems to be my compromising factor.
As for a nomad, I don't know other than my friend has one and he has grown to love it.

link:
http://www.boatertalk.com/reviews2-product.php?productid=768&reviewid=3111&showReviews=Y
 

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Regadless of the fact I work for the company, I LOVE my Nomad! It is by far my favorite creeker yet. Fast and forgiving this boat will get down the steep stuff with ease. I won the short boat division in the Gore race this past year, have paddled it all around creeks in Colorado, California, and the East Coast and it never let's me down. Ask any owner of a Nomad and they will say they same. Sounds like you paddled a pre-production boat. Maybe try the final version and then decide.
I have not tried the El Jefe but it does look good. LL has great designers so I would suggest trying them both.
I will be in Durango Sat. and more then likely paddling Escalante again Sunday. If you want to meet up and creek it, I have a demo you are more then welcome to try out.

hobie
Dagger Kayaks
Paddle with the Pros
Rocky Mountain Division
 

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I love my Nomad 8.5, and I don't work for Dagger :)

I had been paddling a Micro 240 for years, mostly because I was familiar with the design. I really think the Nomad will take my abilities to another level- it just feels like a confident design. Features I like:

1) Foot comfort: lots of room for a 6'4" guy with 11.5 feet.
2) Posture: I've heard this from other Nomad owners too- the cockpit somehow causes you to sit with your back straight, in an aggressive posture. Makes for more efficient paddle storkes and better vision.
3) I haven't done a self support, but the boat seems to paddle much the same when it's loaded with safety gear as it does empty (not when you pick it up, of course).
4) Good mix of downstream speed and acceleration, and very manuverable rail-to-rail. Not squirrelly at all in soupy water.

The only downside is the weight, which is negligible if you're running rapids you used to portage. I like the idea of a creeker with some heft, because you feel it'll knock its way through stuff.

Take Hobie up on the demo. I like the looks of the Jefe, but I can't see trading out the Nomad right now or in the foreseeable future. I did demo the Deisel, and I just didn't find it to be suitable as a pure Colorado creeker for me- I think it would be a good boat for big water V like you find in California or the Northwest, but we have so many rocks out here I think you gotta be careful with how much rail you leave out there...
 

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Hobie-

More than likely heading to Escalante for the weekend. If you have any other Nomad's to demo I'd be all about it. My #@$% M3 is cracking faster than I can patch it.

Frank
 

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I have spent several days in both of the boats in question. At 150 and 5'10, the nomad felt just like my Corsica S race boat. It was really fast downstream, very wide, somewhat shallow on the rocker, and was able to make all the moves that I needed it to. With that said, I would be cautious when taking it down very tight class 5 and would op for the 8.1 if I was paddling for dagger and headed to the steeps. The boat could get people in trouble.

The jefe, is also quick and 3 inches shorter. As for turning, with almost 10 inches of rocker on both sides it turnes like a Huck. Which, is what I want. I want a boat that cruises downstream, has the speed that is needed on a creek (not mach 1 speed but some speed is a plus) and the rocker to blow past holes.

I prefer the Jefe. My production version will be in by the 20th of May. I can't wait since I'm recovering from shoulder surgery and havn't been in a boat since January 8th.

Sweet,

Scott M.
 

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I've spent about a month in my Jefe now and I'm still really like it. A friend has a Nomad 8.5 and from a size comparison they are very similar boats. I'll see if I can find my side by side pics. The Jefe has more rocker and volume in the bow and the Nomad 8.5 has more volume in the rear. My best guess is that this would make the nomad hit the dark water a little fast while punching a hole and the Jefe will re-surface a little better. IMO the Jefe feels like a Huka with better tracking and a little more length. I'm also a big fan on LL's outfitting, simple and bomber, but i'm sure there is someone who has broken about everything out there.
 

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I've spent about a month in my Jefe now and I'm still really like it. A friend has a Nomad 8.5 and from a size comparison they are very similar boats. I'll see if I can find my side by side pics. The Jefe has more rocker and volume in the bow and the Nomad 8.5 has more volume in the rear. My best guess is that this would make the nomad hit the dark water a little fast while punching a hole and the Jefe will re-surface a little better. IMO the Jefe feels like a Huka with better tracking and a little more length. I'm also a big fan on LL's outfitting, simple and bomber, but i'm sure there is someone who has broken about everything out there.
 

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I have a nomad 8.5...

And I love it. I am just getting into creeking. I found the Nomad to be super easy to control, really forgiving over vertical drops with great resurfacing. I found eddying to be fine with the boat and it was easy to catch super tight eddies. The boat has great downstream speed and plows through holes well. I looked at the El Jefe too and sat in one after paddling the Nomad. One thing that immediately stood out is that the dagger outfitting has you sitting in a position where your knees are more bent and it feels like a more agressive posture that helps for keeping upright and paddling agressively. It also helps me with edge control. When sitting in the Jefe, it felt like my knees were much less bent and it felt wierd to me. It seemed a bit harder to keep a more agressive posture sitting in the boat and I didn't feel like I could use my knees to edge the boat as easily. In the end the 8.5 is a bigger boat than the Jefe, and I liked that too as I wanted a creeker a bit on the larger side. It doesn't paddle like a big ass boat though... very responsive.

Enjoy!
 

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Frank,
Looks like we are on for Escalante on Sunday. I will have both Nomads so feel free to try one out. We will be in the Subaru so look for us there sometime around 11ish im guessing. Call me Sat. night at (970) 390-6860 and we can line it up.

hobie
 

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I've spent about a month in my Jefe now and I'm still really like it. A friend has a Nomad 8.5 and from a size comparison they are very similar boats. I'll see if I can find my side by side pics. The Jefe has more rocker and volume in the bow and the Nomad 8.5 has more volume in the rear. My best guess is that this would make the nomad hit the dark water a little fast while punching a hole and the Jefe will re-surface a little better. IMO the Jefe feels like a Huka with better tracking and a little more length. I'm also a big fan on LL's outfitting, simple and bomber, but i'm sure there is someone who has broken about everything out there.
 

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Hobie,

Check your email and let me know if you got the one I sent.

Admins:

Here's the error I keep getting when I post...

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File : /home/httpd/vhosts/mountainbuzz.com/httpdocs/includes/emailer.php
 

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Jefe more versitile?

I paddle a nomad 8.5. I like it 90% of the time. Ive seen the LL paddlers on the green with their jefes and they look sweet. I lost to hobie in the nomad. I have to say go with the jefe because its newer. The nomad hull is a great boat but I think the outfitting sucks. The flipswitch backband doesnt give you the personal touch of getting it just right everytime. Also the nomads seat comes up high so it is hard to get gear in. On the other side LL designed the jefe for expeditions so it shouldnt be a problem. I havent paddled the jefe but Im assuming they will paddle very similar. The main difference that I really see is that dagger made two sizes for two different size people. LL made one creeker that fits everybody. I dont know about everybodys size here but Im about 165 5'11" and thought the small nomad too small. The large one fits well but I think I should be in the middle of the two. I paddled the gus before that and there really wasnt anysize difference so I went with larger one. On a positive note for dagger, my boat did a waterfall without me and had both ends bashed in. A little hot water and it lots just like before. I dont if other creekers would do the same. If I had a grand, I would probably get in a jefe. If I break my nomad and find a cheap one, I have no problem getting another nomad. Both are good boats. Russell
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Thanks for the great response everyone. I remember feeling a very aggressive posture in the Nomad, and I did like the Flipswitch backband, even though I didn't have time to really tweak it just right. That bit about the knees is interesting - Marc Lyle always seems to place the knees higher and further out in his designs, something I think is a great feature. Hopefully I can demo both soon and get one dialed in before the water comes full-on.

Hobie - tell Marc there's one vote for Dagger's next creeker having that short rail like the CFS. I seriously think that is the best hull invention ever for creeking. If Dagger makes a Nomad with that rail, I'll buy Dagger creekers till I can't boat anymore.
 

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I have not been a dagger fan since the freefall lt got outdated...I hated all there creek boats until I paddled the nomad in the embudo around 3.6-3.7ish and it was awesome..I am now buying one as we chat,as it had everything I wanted in a boat..Look forward to getting my own here real soon...

Saw the jefe while in the east a month ago and it looked awesome also...Cannot wait to paddle it and see what it is all about...The one thing I did'nt like was how narrow it was and it seemed to have a narrow cockpit to escape from...Again I think the jefe looks awesome and cannot wait to try her out but Dagger has sold me on the Nomad...


Be safe out there and hit it with your head...
Gary
 
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