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Yawn.....where did they get that name from, almost sounds like it came from the old Riot rolladex of names (Trickster, Prankster, Dominatrix.........)

Oh, I get it now (okay, I'm slow) - the "Hero" vs. the "Villian"......
 

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Looks like they've got another hit. I've said it before, there need only be two whitewater boat companies, JK and WS, and JK seems to now be dominating. I still love my Diesel and Habitat, but the Hero and Punk Rocker became huge rivals to them. Now the Villian looks like it may take the prize. Kudos to JK.
 

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Let me qualify that I am in no way, shape or form an authority on creekboat designs but to say that "there need only be two whitewater boat companies, JK and WS" is a gross misrepresentation by my experience. To the contrary, the brands I see on the river are Dagger, Pryranha, LL and Prijon. I'm not sayin that JK and WS don't deserve some laurels but to say they are dominating the market? really?
 

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Let me qualify that I am in no way, shape or form an authority on creekboat designs but to say that "there need only be two whitewater boat companies, JK and WS" is a gross misrepresentation by my experience. To the contrary, the brands I see on the river are Dagger, Pryranha, LL and Prijon. I'm not sayin that JK and WS don't deserve some laurels but to say they are dominating the market? really?
Redpaddle,

No offense to anyone. It is only one man's opinion, of course. Next season will be my 30th year of white water kayaking. In that time I have owned 17 or more boats and have paddled many others. Undeniably, all boats have been enjoyable to me. Over time there has been various leading design/perforamance dominance by different companies. In my opinion, Perception had it for a while, then Prijon, Dagger, Wave Sport, and possibly Jackson now. Again, just about any boat is capable of getting down the river and there are several top contending boats to justifiably credit as excellent tools. However, I would credit Wave Sport and Jackson as producing the top designs for performance and quality. And, as I have stated in the past, a third mentionable should give credit to Prijon for its advanced thinking in technology (HTP plastic) and having been somewhat inspirational in certain designs over the years. Right now, though, I see the Diesel and Habitat and the entire line of JK boats as dominating in design performance. It is my opinion that if you are going to buy a new boat it should be one of those. Maybe someday another manufacturer will come into leadership. I don't know how far boat designs can improve, but it seems to me that the all time best boats have come from WS and JK.
 

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Looks like they've got another hit. I've said it before, there need only be two whitewater boat companies, JK and WS, and JK seems to now be dominating. I still love my Diesel and Habitat, but the Hero and Punk Rocker became huge rivals to them. Now the Villian looks like it may take the prize. Kudos to JK.
Fairly quick to decide arent you? You see two pictures of a prototype and its hit? I musta missed something.
 

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Fairly quick to decide arent you? You see two pictures of a prototype and its hit? I musta missed something.
Time will certainly tell. As with the Diesel, ZG, Habitat, and Hero ... the design previews convinvced me that those designs were going to kill it. And they did. The Villain looks refined to me. I love the punk rocker already. What if it gets better? We'll see!

Cheers!
Ken
 

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Don't get me wrong Ken, I'm not trashin on WS or JK, in fact I really want an Allstar. This design looks like the Jefe or Nomad and given the clever name I bet JK is looking to offer both styles of creek boat under their flag. The hero for people who like edges (a la Burn) and the Villain for people who like displacement (a la Jefe).

I don't go through boats like popcorn like some folks but it seems to me that if someone really brought a good design to the table with a construction that would last a few hard seasons then they would have something to brag about rather than imitating established designs.

Maybe it will be the new pinnacle of whitewater boats, who knows? But maybe it will just be another rendition of the other displacement hulls out there, but this time with Happy Feet!
 

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Guess what -- it's not really about innovation in creekboats, it's about making money with a new design that people will get excited about via the hype machine. People can run everything from the Stikine to the Tiegdale just fine in the current offerings, but companies have to keep making new boats to generate new interest. Not to say that new designs with slight performance enhancements are a bad thing, but the real innovation would be making a safe boat (with pillars) that has plastic that will last a hard creeker 5 years (htp) . . . but that wouldn't be too profitable in the long run, now would it?
 

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The "durability" argument will go on and on for years until a legit system is in place to rate the boats. Everyone will always claim the boat they spent good money on is "bomber", and back it up with exaggerated accounts of the shit they've smashed theirs into. I'm no exception to this, we are all guilty of the "fish stories". Companies can claim their plastic is "better" by so many different standards that are all fairly irrelevant, and mostly just marketing hype. Until an independent company starts smashing these things into something repeatedly, and thus scientifically testing the strength the durability argument is nothing but a pissing match for what boat you think is cooler. I have no idea what this all has to do with this thread, but I just get tired of the "plastic" debate.
 

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The boat definitely looks SWEET from what is shown!! I don't see any outfitting in the picture to judge. (Hard to judge from a picture anyway's) I'm still eye F****N the new "Prijon Pure" (fan of German engineering)!! Ha Haaa!! I wonder if any other new boats will be coming out this season???
 

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I can't resist a winter boat bullshit session.

Speaking of bullshit, it is total bullshit that we need to have a scientific test to determine if some plastics are better than others. It's well known by any creekboater (except apparently Tom who just learned) that the HTP plastics used by Prijon and Salto hold up much much better than the linear plastics. It's also well known that the old Wavesport crosslink plastics were on par. It may not be written up in Helvetica 12 point and bound in a journal, but there are plenty of field tests that prove this to be true.

As for all the linear plastics on today's boats, the differences are more subtle. There do appear to be some differences, but suffice it to say they all suck and in my opinion the best plastic is the one with the best warranty. If Jackson copies a Jefe and has a better warranty (which they seem to), then I say great, that's a innovation I'm down with. If they ever get their crosslink plastic fixed so it actually holds up, then that would be fantastic.

As for Jackson and Wavesport being the only real manufacturers out there - seriously KV, I generally respect your opinions, but on this one I call bullshit. The other manufacturers must have some incredible marketing machines to trick people into buying their vastly inferior boats because the rivers certainly aren't dominated by these JK & WS products.

My take is in the outdoors industry (same can probably be said about almost any industry) the product innovations tend to come in spurts. My observation is the Nomad initiated a spurt that lead to the current body of creek boats. New designs seem to all be very slight variations on theme, and that's fine. But I'm definitely with Alex that the low hanging fruit for creek boat innovation is durability. Since there's no market incentive, I think we need a government mandate.
 

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I never said the plastics should be tested. I said the boats. You can use whatever plastic your heart desires. There are way more factors than just the type of plastic. How thick the plastic is in key areas, how the plastic is supported by the foam, how the outfitting connects to said plastic and so on. Every company has different theories on how all this stuff should work together. So I don't think it is really fair to say XYZ company is bomber because they use ABC plastic. My feeling is, until there is a legit way to compare this stuff quit bickering, and paddle the boat you're stoked about and gets you running what you like to run. In the end, I know this is all very much just wishful thinking.
 

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Hull shape, outfitting, etc. are very minor factors in durability of the hull. Sometimes it is more of a a factor, like the first Nomads that had a wear spot at the front of the seat, and I think the M3s have a weak spot where the chines are. Dagger fixed the seat problem but those things still get crushed easier than playdough. Thickness tends to be limited by people's demands on keeping the weight under a certain limit. So really plastic in the major factor in durability and that's why it's the main point of discussion, not how the outfitting attaches.

Besides being mildly entertaining to talk about, I'm glad people think about and discuss such things. If not, there would be no new innovation and I'd have to paddle one of those long cigar boats with no back band and hand carved foam for outfitting like the old guys used to do.
 
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