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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited by Moderator)
Just thought I would throw this out to all my fellow boaters. I took a trip down the San Juan in MAY of this year. Our party considered the option of camping on the Navajo side of the river between Sand Island and Clays Hill landing. The permit office charges a fee for hiking on Navajo land as well as a fee for camping if you decide to camp. They TOLD me that I could get a refund if I did not use all the "permits" that I ended up paying for.

Well, we did not camp one night on Navajo land and ended up only hiking once on the Navajo land. We were told we could get a refund right, so why would sweat not "using " my permits? Well it is Dec 5th and I am going to the bank today to FINALLY cash a refund that check that has taken my almost a half a year to get. I heard every excuse in the book. Literally it was almost comical on how unprofessional and rude they operate, except I was trying to get my money back and that was not funny and it was well over $100. It took probably 20 plus phone call and probably double that amount in emails for over 5 months to get the refund check!

I am convinced they are used to doing this to most people and they finally just go away. Well I didn't go away at all because I realized after the first month or two of playing nice would get me now where. I had that fact, I really do, but it was the apparent truth.

This really makes me sad and also angers me to no extent. I am part native American myself and I am proud of my heritage, but the way I was treated is exactly why they have the reputation that they do now. They have the choice, but choose not to take the high road. And I will say it was not just one person I dealt with. It was multiple people. They just don't care. PERIOD. I WILL NEVER DEAL WITH THE "REZ" AGAIN. I refuse to give any more money to an entity that will not honor what they say. I know my "people" including the Navajos were done wrong many many years ago. However, that is in the past and is no reason at all do intentionally deceive and manipulate the current population now. AND no I never told them I was native American, but that should not have made a difference nor should it....:mad:

JUST AS A WARNING !!! This was my experience, maybe yours might be different! maybe.....:roll:
 

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Cry about it same on most reservations for the permit license system. Just like a deer license when you don't shoot one you don't get a refund! Get over it they gave you a refund.

If I bought a tribal License for the wind river reservation and don't end up using it I'm not going get a refund its the way it works.
As far as being partial native don't expect a soveirgn nation to follow the rules you grew up with..

As far as grouping all the Navajo as the same people and not indivuals I think that's incredibly childish specially seeing how you say you are partial native.
 

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not trying to defend anyone here and it does sound like you got the run-around for a while, but keep it in perspective. You're not dealing with a multi national corp like amazon or nrs and you did get your $ back. Look at "government's" general attitude toward customer service...IRS, ACA, SSA, etc...
That said, it would be nice if they had a better process for issuing the permits, at least as good as the Ute tribe over by Deso.
The last time I was on the SJ and tried to get a "hiking" permit I actually got a call form the Tribe's antiquities office to find out where we actually wanted to go and what we wanted to do. They just wanted to make sure we weren't planning to go to some sensitive cultural sites that they had been having problems with. I actually thought that was good practice on their part.
 

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Seems to me your a little out of line. You requested permission to hike on their private, sacred tribal lands which just so happens to contain some of the best cultural relics of any river trip in the US. I didn't even realize they would give refunds. Not like it was hundreds of $'s anyway.... seems like you should just appreciate the opportunity to enjoy their land, that's worth a lot more than a little $ the way I see it...
 

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If you plan to even step foot on Navajo land on your SJ trip you should buy a permit and split it with your group and be done with it.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited by Moderator)
not my point

All you guys are missing the point and that is too bad. I WAS TOLD ONE THING, and then they acted on it differently after I, in good faith sent them a cashier's check for access that I never used. If I was told , "hey no refunds" , then I would have never said anything about it. However NOR would have I bought so many permits because she TOLD Me that if I didn't use them, that "oh no problem, you can just request a refund and get your money back." What part of that do you not understand???:rolleyes:

I am not classifying them a people either, I am only complaining about my experience with the permitting office. Here again, we have someone trying to take what someone says and twist it around to be something different. You DO WHAT YOU SAY YOU ARE GOING TO DO, it is a matter of principle. That is how I live my life. I say what I can am going to do and if I can't deliver something, well then I don't promise it. If you want to say that I am complaining about that, then yes I am complaining about expecting someone to treat me fairly. Yea I guess that is asking way to much in today's world.

All you guys are missing the point. I WAS TOLD ONE THING, and then they acting on it differently after I in good faith sent them a cashier's check. If I was told , hey no refunds, then I would have never said anything about it. However I bought many permits because she TOLD Me that if I didn't use them, that "oh no problem, you can just request a refund and get your money back."

I am not classifying them a people either, I am only complaining about my experience with the permitting office and the administration of the Navajo lands. Here again, we have someone trying to take what someone says and twist it around to be something different. typical in todays world.

My point again is, You DO WHAT YOU SAY YOU ARE GOING TO DO, it is a matter of principle. That is how I live my life. I say what I can and am going to do and if I can't deliver on something, well then I don't promise it. If you want to say that I am complaining about that, then yes I am complaining about expecting someone to treat me fairly. Yea I guess that is asking way to much in today's world.

As for comparing it to another government entity, did I say any of those were worth a damn either? Don't think so..:cool:...that is your comparison and not mine, there we go again, adding something in the subject that I never was talking about.
 

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Don't talk bout fairness when you bring up race of people who had there land stolen.. Nothing is fair and you should have let it slide. Simple as that you are ignorant.
 

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Still sounds like they held up their part of the bargain eh? You got your $$ back. I just think you're sore because it took you 7 months to get it back.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Oh and yea it was a lot of money, $180 to be exact and when you as the group leader, you tell everyone in your group that if we did not use the permits that THEY would be refunded their share of the permit cost, then this makes you feel like a complete fool and LIAR. Yea expecting someone to honor what they had told me and then repeating it to others is somehow wrong??? Please let me explain the logic in that one? .......
 

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Discussion Starter #10
casper mike is way our and ignorant

Caspemike is ignorant. This is nothing to do with the past. I had nothing to do with what happened in the past AND NEITHER DID MY ANCESTORS who were killed and stolen from by the settlers of this country JUST AS WELL as the NAVAJO nation. It is no different, you just don't know the story so you are the ignorant one my friend.
 

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Has anyone on this board ever been stopped and checked for a permit when camped/hiking on river left?

Follow up, has anyone on this board ever been cited for not having a permit for the Navajo side? If so, what was the fine?

Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter #12
No I have not been checked when I have been down there. I was simply HONORING their request and paid the money. I have no idea what the fine would be. However will not need to know in the future because it will not be an issue.
 

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Yes and no.....
our group was asked to show the camping permit while camped at Chinle in 2009. Not sure who it was or what auth they had as I was off 'hiking" at the time. We had the permit so I have no idea what the "penalty" might be.

Back to the OP for a sec.... to quote caspermike "Life is not Fair" - We have to deal with BS all the time in life, so you were out $180 for half a year.... in the big scheme of things, big deal. Sure it pissed you off, life pisses people off all the time. But you got to see the SJ and hopefully some cool stuff. Maybe you'll go back there someday, maybe you won't.
 

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We hike in to look at Desecration Wall on almost every trip. Never had a permit, never had a problem. It never seemed that the camping was any better on that side so we never bother with a reservation permit.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Yea Oarframe, I know you are right life is not fair, but you do what you can to make it right.

My initial intent was not to get into some stupid discussion like what Casper mike was trying to do, but instead let people know that , if you buy a permit from the Navajo Nation, don't expect a refund or anything like it REGARDLESS of what they tell you . I guess you just cant believe what they tell you is what I am saying. Too bad that is the case.

Anyway, I saw plenty of cool stuff, on the BLM side of the river as well as one day of a short hike on the Navajo side that I gladly paid for upfront without hesitation.
 

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In all honesty, it sounds to me like the Navajo Nation treated you better than any other permit issuing land management agency around. Just try to get a refund from NPS, BLM, USFS, ect. for any kind of permit that you don't use. That includes river trips, hiking trips, campsites, firewood, ect.

You should be delighted that they gave you the privilege of visiting their land and then kept their word about the refund.

I am actually baffled at why they would refund any money at all. After all, how does anyone prove that they didn't camp on river left after the fact. Do you really expect them to refund every party that calls up after their trip and says "Oh ya, we actually didn't camp on your side. Give me my money back?"

Also, the fourth paragraph of your original response expresses some very clearly racist attitudes. I can guess how your attitude was during whatever communications you had with their office, and that is never helpful when navigating through a bureaucracy.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Still waiting on Casper Mike to tell me why I should have NOT told the rest of the party to expect refunds if we did not use the permits, aka, "step foot on the land" if that is indeed what I was told by the permitting office. hmmmmm.

Since I am so evidently so damn ignorant and Casper Mike is so damn intelligent, I am still waiting on the explanation and the logic of why that was wrong and I should expect something different............
 

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Hey beetle,

my questions for you is: "who told you that the Navajo would repay you" and "Did they say it would be easy?"

Cuz, I'd be pissed at the people who told you that the refund would be easy! That's what I'm thinking.

IMHO, these permits are like fishing permits, you buy them and if you choose not to use them then that is your choice. I would never expect to get my money back if I chose not you use them or left my fishing pole in the truck. There is no way for the Navajo to know if you used them or not! Its only your word and I'd give them credit for trusting you. Just saying.. You could have used them and we would never know if nobody saw you. Anyway, It just seems like poor planning on the part of the trip leader. Next time will be much better.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
it doesn't matter what makes sense, what matters is I took the ladies word at face value. I BELIEVED HER. Why?? was I supposed to argue the logic behind it? yea I know it makes no sense, but that is not a policy decision for me to make or decide on. How many government agencies always make sense one way or the other? I am sure this is not the only example
 
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