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Holy shit man this video... I... what...

I'll just tell you what Leif always tells me, "do less and do it better".
 

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Looks like you're just throwing your weight around instead of paddling correctly to initiate. That video posted above should help a good bit.
 

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Back decks: You have the basic motion down when you roll to your left. Don't overextend your arms too much... your top forearm should be across your face/forehead to protect from rocks and keep your shoulder low. Really, these are much easier to learn in a small and deep friendly hole on the river because the current should do most of the work, thus requiring less leverage/reach/etc. Practicing in a pool has never really worked for me, and I back deck more than I probably should.

Don't worry about learning bow stalls until you get your double pump down to initiate them.

Double Pump: Few tips.
1) Edge your boat to the extent that when doing it properly, you would fall over if it weren't for your momentum. Basically more edge, with the most edge occuring when you throw your bow into the water.
2) Start with a forward stroke, and continue it to get your paddle flat (parallel) to the surface of the water. Knuckles of both hands should be wet. Close the "scissors" between your stern and your paddle blade, in order to bury your stern into the water behind you, and to lift your bow above the water in front of you. Get your bow as high as possible out of the water. The moment it starts to fall back down go to step 3.
3) Get your paddle parallel to the water, shift your hips/weight forward over your bow as you rotate your bow under your torso. Kiss the water. Literally, get your face at the surface of the water. If you are going to stall, bury your paddle to your wrists at this step to get a more forward position and more bite with your paddle blades. Keep it on the surface if you are cartwheeling.
5) Listen to Leif... less is more. And if he says something different, listen to him. I'm sure there are better step by step how to's out there with a search. Probably on this site even.
 

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Just slow down a bit and keep all your movements smooth and flowing.

Focus on the feel and feather of the blade in the water.

KEEP YOUR HEAD DOWN! and let your backbones bend. You're too stiff on your roll up. look at your spine, its too strieght. There should be a curve or bend as your head comes out of the water. Don't try to "pop" out of the water try to "slink" up. You're going to have a hard time in that draco on stalls. But go to the edge of the pool and have someone hold you in position. You'll get the feel.

Awwww, don't listen to me I'll just scew you up more worster.
 

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Looking for "critics", huh? You've come to the right place. But here on the internet we call them "haters" or "trolls" instead of critics.

I think that if I could summarize your next major hurdle in a compact phrase, it would be that you are too strong for your own good. Your normal roll comes around really fast, but I think that part of that is because you are muscling it a little. Similarly, on the bow plow, you are strong enough to make it work. Personally I am not a fan of the bow plow, and I do not teach my students that technique. The double pump right near the end (2:40 or so) is the technique I have been teaching to spencer. You have enough arm strength to get some results, but that's the exact problem. The motion should come from your core. Use those abs to get the boat sort of hopping, and it will not take very much effort.

I like McCrotchen's description, but I would tweak a few things. On step 2, lift your bow up (higher than you are right now), but do not commit your whole body to the motion. While the bow is still on the way up, start sitting a tiny bit more forward and trying to sort of jump up onto the bow end. Basically, don't wait for it to stall out before going to step 3, do it very early. The key part of step 3 is that you are turning to face the water. This can be hard because your paddle is in the wrong place; it's still vertical in the water. You probably feel like you want to just keep pulling the stroke through until it reaches the surface and leaves you in a perfect wound-up position to throw the bow, but that will not happen. There is too much water in the way. Get your blade free of the water by just sort of picking it up out of there sideways. Rotate your shoulders and belly to face straight down toward the surface of the water, and put your paddle blade on the surface, ready to throw the bow down (you might hear a slap as it hits the water if you're doing it right). While you've been doing this, your bow will be getting about as high as it can get, and starting back down. Now, your blade and upper body are rotated into a very powerful position to throw the bow down underneath you. Use your abs and think about pushing your feet around. Try to make it look like you're just doing it without even trying. Your upper body should more or less form a sort of box, with shoulders and paddle parallel to the surface, which will stay stationary while the boat rotates underneath you until it's vertical.

In the video, you wind up but your blade stays in the water a little, and more importantly your core stays facing forward, so when you try to push the bow down, you run out of stroke and have to straighten your arm, which rotates you around the long axis of the boat, onto your head.

Furthermore, don't worry about practicing the roll too much. If you're working on the cartwheel correctly, you will flip over all the time. If you stay upright, use more edge. If you enjoy it, go for it, but if you are practicing the roll because you think you have to, switch to something you enjoy. And I agree with dirtbag wholeheartedly when he says not to listen to himself.
 

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I like the advice from the guy who just started kayaking better than Leif's. It was easier to read and said the same thing, you're doing it wrong.

Mountainbuzz, where a rafter gives a kayaker advice on how to flat water cartwheel by replying "learn to scull".
 

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Looking for "critics", huh? You've come to the right place. But here on the internet we call them "haters" or "trolls" instead of critics.

I think that if I could summarize your next major hurdle in a compact phrase, it would be that you are too strong for your own good. Your normal roll comes around really fast, but I think that part of that is because you are muscling it a little. Similarly, on the bow plow, you are strong enough to make it work. Personally I am not a fan of the bow plow, and I do not teach my students that technique. The double pump right near the end (2:40 or so) is the technique I have been teaching to spencer. You have enough arm strength to get some results, but that's the exact problem. The motion should come from your core. Use those abs to get the boat sort of hopping, and it will not take very much effort.

I like McCrotchen's description, but I would tweak a few things. On step 2, lift your bow up (higher than you are right now), but do not commit your whole body to the motion. While the bow is still on the way up, start sitting a tiny bit more forward and trying to sort of jump up onto the bow end. Basically, don't wait for it to stall out before going to step 3, do it very early. The key part of step 3 is that you are turning to face the water. This can be hard because your paddle is in the wrong place; it's still vertical in the water. You probably feel like you want to just keep pulling the stroke through until it reaches the surface and leaves you in a perfect wound-up position to throw the bow, but that will not happen. There is too much water in the way. Get your blade free of the water by just sort of picking it up out of there sideways. Rotate your shoulders and belly to face straight down toward the surface of the water, and put your paddle blade on the surface, ready to throw the bow down (you might hear a slap as it hits the water if you're doing it right). While you've been doing this, your bow will be getting about as high as it can get, and starting back down. Now, your blade and upper body are rotated into a very powerful position to throw the bow down underneath you. Use your abs and think about pushing your feet around. Try to make it look like you're just doing it without even trying. Your upper body should more or less form a sort of box, with shoulders and paddle parallel to the surface, which will stay stationary while the boat rotates underneath you until it's vertical.

In the video, you wind up but your blade stays in the water a little, and more importantly your core stays facing forward, so when you try to push the bow down, you run out of stroke and have to straighten your arm, which rotates you around the long axis of the boat, onto your head.

Furthermore, don't worry about practicing the roll too much. If you're working on the cartwheel correctly, you will flip over all the time. If you stay upright, use more edge. If you enjoy it, go for it, but if you are practicing the roll because you think you have to, switch to something you enjoy. And I agree with dirtbag wholeheartedly when he says not to listen to himself.
This is how I felt reading that wall of text.


 

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If it were easy, it would be called rafting. Now go practice your offside cartwheel, spencer.
 

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I just push the button that says make movies mobile. Before you upload it. Pretty sure it's free.. Just don't get file size to high and it's all good.
 

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OK. I'm not qualified to critique your vid. Neither is Leif but I wouldn't say that publicly about him.

Anyway, the reason I'm posting in this thread is cuz I think flat water tricks in a volume boat are way over rated and tend to create bad technique and even "bad" boaters. It teaches a poor relationship with the water. Flatwater freestyle tends to create boaters who try to use power to do tricks that are meant to be done fluidly with a rio feature. The best play boaters are flowing with the rio and not trying to overpower it. IMO, the best way to develop in flat water is to get in a squirt boat. That will teach you more about body/boat/paddle positioning than a surface boat and it will teach you way more about working with the water than a surface boat can, even if you have a good teacher like Leif (please don't tell him I said that). I know most reading this either don't have access to a squirt or won't be able to hear it but I offer this opinion thinking it might make a difference for some. Its too late for Leif but he could never find a squirt boat cut for him anyway...
 

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Discussion Starter #16
my boat is a dragorossi fish .. its a playboat .. definitely not a riverrunner (sucked into every hole then flipped backwards everytime by the flat fish tale on the back.. i use it as a play/river runner until i can afford another boat
 
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