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How to cut gun death toll - CNN.com

Does anyone believe that this will change anything? I am tired of the split forums thread so I thought I would throw up a lightening rod topic.
 

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CA has a 10 round limit,

NYC - has virtual ban on handguns unless you are rich

NJ - is similar to NY

Chicago had an outright handgun ban until recently

how well have those laws worked in preventing shootings?

Paul Helmke must be in Nirvana right now being able to spout off about guns.
 

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from the article:

What good would such a ban accomplish? In the case of Tucson, news reports indicated that the shooter was subdued by private citizens while he was trying to reload his weapon. Had his magazine held fewer rounds, he would have had to reload sooner than he did, and perhaps fewer people would have died as a result.

seems like a simple answer to your question of whether or not that will change anything
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Or maybe it was hard to reload because it was an abnormally large magazine.
 

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My thought is that magazine size limits might be one of the best ways to prevent amateur psychopaths whose only shooting training was a video game from turning a casualty count above 20. As I think of it, turns out the time it takes to reload is pretty prime "run for it" opportunity. Therefor, as a guy who wants to keep my guns and yet be reasonable after Saturday's change of everything, I'm going to now support it.

I'm thinking tactically here, not politically:
If the guy had had to reload 10-round magazines, that time enables the fit (rule #1: cardio) to get the hell out of "too close to miss" range.

Moreover, since most of these psychopaths have no actual skill with a firearm, they're adrenaline is going, meaning reloading will be sub-optimal. They'll waste extra time there. It's THE prime time to screw up your master plan of gunning down people at the entry-way to Safeway.

I know we can't keep good criminals from getting access to high-capacity mags. Hell, they can be made easily enough in any garage machine shop.

But here we on the pro-2nd Amendment side of the argument have a scenario where somebody did everything legally, guns, bullets, and high capacity magazines. Of the three that are easiest to remedy, I think high capacity magazines ought to be on the table after Saturday.

And that's a new stance for me.
 

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Helio-- Magazine capacity will make little difference, outright gun bans are barely effective as evidenced by Chicago in the past decade.

If someone wanted to really kill a grip of people they'd use multiple guns with smaller magazines. In reality a pump 12gauge shotgun with no modifications would be more deadly than a pistol with 30rounds in the hands of a novice shooter. CA only allows magazines of 10 rounds to be sold, most semi auto pistols come standard with 12-16rd magazines. What should the maximum capacity be?

Though, even as an avid shooter with no plans of going postal I would ALMOST entertain the magazine capacity rule, I find a 10 round magazine is reasonable for my uses; practice, range time, and self defense. However many anti gun people are so uneducated about guns they listen to Sarah Brady and Paul Helmke and believe everything. Most of the non gun owning public can't differentiate the difference between 'automatic' and 'semi automatic' Most people look at a scary black rifle as an 'assault rifle' and yet think a traditional shotgun is much safer for the masses....

The fact is I will never support any law that erodes my 2A right; I see the gun control lobby as wanting to incrementally take away gun rights until I am left with Red Ryder BB gun that only allows one pump.

While Tuscon and other mass shooting are a very somber idea, I suggest that we need to better address why people are so crazy. I admit guns make it easier for a crazy person to kill a little easier, but feel that any truly crazy pissed off person will find a way to maim and kill given enough time to stew and plan.
 

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There should have been some sort of security for this event. One trained individual with one round could have stopped this. If a crazy person wants to kill more people they can certainly buy more guns or become more proficient at changing magazines. Magazine capacity laws are merely a feel good measure.

If law enforcement had done their jobs or mom & dad had done their jobs this would have never happened.

I have a wide selection of guns with a wide selection of magazine capacity's. I'm a law abiding citizen and never once thought of doing anything violent with them.

You can't legislate for every scenario. A car or an SUV could have done as much damage.
 

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These types of horrific events have happened throughout history.

If you're in the in the public spotlight and have confirmed knowledge of potential threats you should absolutely consider beefing up security. A gay guy, a social worker and a lesbian do not constitute real time situational awareness or a credible defensive response. Unless of course the lesbian staffer happens to be trained and packing heat.

This is one situation with it's own set of circumstances. Great excuse for a pre-2012 campaign rally though! Anyone get their free T-shirt?
 

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I thought that is why we carry guns, for self defense and the second amendment gave us the right to protect ourselves from situation and idiots like this, no matter how many rounds his magazine held. Plus I would not have to wait for him to reload, I would just worry about myself running out of ammo. But if I was not armed in this situation anything over a single shot would be a high capacity magazine to me (it's all about prospective, what is consider a high cap. mag.) .
 

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Yarmony, you're starting to advocate a mercenary world with that philosophy. I'm for more people carrying weapons with proper training, and I think pretty rigorous re-training to both A) own and B) carry. And I'd like to see less actual 'concealed' weapons on civilians. If more of us could show, the bad guys would be far less brave in many circumstances.

I'm not sure the American people are willing to accept the "1 AK-47 per household" that we find in such modern states as Iraq...

But I'm not sure I'm right, either. I have a lot of mixed feelings. I think gun owners ought to do some soul searching over the issue, regardless. Maybe the answer is more civilian gun presence. Maybe it's more regulation. Magazine capacity seems like a small price to me right now, compared to what else we could do.
 

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mercenary world? Are you kidding me? I don't know how you can equate my statement as a call for mercenarys. This is a glaring example of extreme naivete'. It's about a stalker. You remember the Rush song Limelight? Congress on the Corner? Advertised days in advance! My God! This is a dangerous world. The fact that Sheriff comes out and blames everyone and everything but himself and his department for these deaths is disgusting. One undercover policeman, sheriff or private security guy standing around looking for abnormal behavior would have eliminated this threat prior to the first round going off.

It's funny how a guy commits a terrible crime and instead of placing the blame and the consequences squarely on the perpetrator, liberals like yourself would like to shift the consequences to law abiding gun owners. It's a case of crazy not of magazine capacity. Security does not mean mercenary's necessarily.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Helio, I think anyone with any practice could change out a magazine in 5 to 10 seconds. I do believe though that in any scenario that you could think up for a defensive situation, that 10 rounds could handle it.
Shotguns are great defensive weapons but saying if he really wanted to kill someone he would have used one doesnt make sense to me. Hard to conceal and holds 6 rounds max and its difficult to reload. Not that I want to spend much time getting in this Tuscon dumbasses head but he probably chose the right weapon for his purpose.
 

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Yarmony, I'm not a liberal, and I'm not naive. Please try to avoid making assumptions about my political posture and defend your world view. It's when you can't substantively defend your world-view that you call others names.
Engage in the topic at hand - don't worry about me personally.
I'm a pretty strong advocate for the 2nd Amendment. And I think in the Tucson case, having to reload after shot 11 (assuming 1 in the chamber) rather than 33 would have resulted in some people at very close range not getting shot.

Considering how simple this plan was, and how legal his acquisition of all his stuff, I think my position is one where we can see a high probability of lower casualties in this incident.

One security guard might have made the same difference, I concede. But what about crazies who show up outside churches (Colorado Springs 2007) or mall (Utah, I think it was, around 2005) where threats weren't made in advance. THe magazine limit could help. THat's how I feel about it. And it's a minor concession (to me) as a 2nd Amendment purist.
 

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I did not refer to you as naive. I apologize I truly was not intending that for you. I was referring to the situation. Gabby Gifford's had several threats against her. To set up an event like this without requesting a minor police presence seems naive in my opinion.

The idea we can legislate a cure for every ill in society is a liberal stance. There's no legislation that can stop crazy. So what if he was only able to shoot the Congresswomen and maybe five other? Would that have made this event any less tragic. If the kid had rented an SUV and driven 75 miles per hour into the crowd and killed even more people. That's the popular new way to commit similar crimes in Europe and Asia. Would you want to outlaw personal vehicles or require a psyc eval prior to purchasing or renting a vehicle.

I will admit that a 30 round extended mag for a handgun is a bit ridiculous but how far do you go. Not to mention it looks stupid and causes the gun to be out of balance. I like my 30 round for my AR's and I'm not willing to give them up.
 

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I did a few drills last night and trust me it takes far less than 5 seconds to change a magazine. I was hitting 2 seconds. This fucknutt was simply not trained or accustom to his weapon. He didn't have the other mag in his hand prior to running out of rounds. Any trained individual counts spent rounds and has the backup in his hands prior to dropping the mag.

I've attended several weapons training sessions in the military and in the private sector. I would highly recommend Gun Smoke Bobs class next summer in Kremling and then follow it up with a week at Front Site in Utah. We need more law abiding citizens carrying. All of my instructors have emphasized that law enforcement generally shows up to investigate a crime but rarely prevents the crime from happening. Back to AZ, The guy buying smokes in the Safeway didn't shoot anyone but he would have if he would have arrived a minute or two earlier. He was about as effective as the sheriffs deputy that wasn't present.
 

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So my question is, If a lot of people have guns, when the shooting starts and all the guns come out, how do you know who the bad guy/guys is/are? Wouldn't a lot of "good guys" get shot by other "good guys" that thought they were bad guys. Apparently the guy buying the smokes that showed up late was worrying about just that. It seems a lot of people would shoot first and think second.

Just wondering what gun owners think about this.
 

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So my question is, If a lot of people have guns, when the shooting starts and all the guns come out, how do you know who the bad guy/guys is/are? Wouldn't a lot of "good guys" get shot by other "good guys" that thought they were bad guys. Apparently the guy buying the smokes that showed up late was worrying about just that. It seems a lot of people would shoot first and think second.

Just wondering what gun owners think about this.

That's a good question rwhyman. In situations like this the instructors I've had say that the guy shooting randomly at innocents will be the guy other gun toter's are focused on. If you take him out, immediately put away your weapon and get behind something and then talk to everyone around you, you will be safe. But it's certainly a chaotic situation and not one I ever hope to encounter.
 

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I just remembered that if this ever happens the FBI trainers I had say to yell "POLICE" or "FBI" or something along those lines as your shooting. Even though your not a cop, it will stop others from shooting you. Answer the questions later.
 

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I'm simply thinking that the facts as I see them: a nutjob gets an excellent handgun for about $500 with the capacity to kill and maim 33 people - completely legally.

Something's wrong with the system that makes it so easy for a nutjob to do this much damage so easily.

I feel pretty strongly that we should make it harder for nutjobs to replicate this same scenario in the future.

I'm not talking about other nutjob methodologies, really. I think we should deal with this one's approach, because if we don't and we see more of these, we might regret not having the 10-round issue dealt with.

A trained psychopath can do better, sure. That's not an argument, as I see it, against restricting the untrained psychopaths. I mean this guy wounded 20 and killed 6 (is that on one 33-round mag? I wasn't sure if he successfully reloaded once).

That casualty ratio is frighteningly impressive, especially when considering his utter lack of training and experience. This kid was even too stupid to buy hollow-points, from what I've gathered, which would more greatly influence his lethality and the extent of wounds. Ms. Giffords would not be alive at all right now if he'd thought to get those.

I've had enough of these, I guess. I'd like to try something, and I think magazines would be a good place to start.
 
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