Mountain Buzz banner
1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
555 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,119 Posts
I would think after trials this would go to ER's first then OR's then Paramedics.

This finding has the potential to save millions of lives every year. The microparticles can keep an object alive for up to 30 min after respiratory failure. This is accomplished through an injection into the patients’ veins. Once injected, the microparticles can oxygenate the blood to near normal levels. This has countless potential uses as it allows life to continue when oxygen is needed but unavailable. For medical personnel, this is just enough time to avoid risking a heart attack or permanent brain injury when oxygen is restricted or cut off to patients.
CPR's weakest link is the breaths. Difficult to do correctly for the non professional.
Stomach fills with air then vomit.
Concerns about disease transference.
Gets in the way of compressions.

Compressions aren't as good as a heart beat but if one is working with oxygenated blood organs can be kept alive.

This might mean the old roll and back compress could come back. As part of a new methodology. Get rid of water in drowning victims lungs.

===========

They say this has to go into a vein so maybe this will not be available to non-Paramedics.



Great Find.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
555 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
No, I really doubt anyone is thinking of shooting up before a stout. I think, rather, you stash a shot in your PFD as a last resort when stuck somewhere (pin or hole). Of course, the entire logistics of being stuck may prevent someone from being able to accomplish this... but really what's to lose?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,119 Posts
No, I really doubt anyone is thinking of shooting up before a stout. I think, rather, you stash a shot in your PFD as a last resort when stuck somewhere (pin or hole). Of course, the entire logistics of being stuck may prevent someone from being able to accomplish this... but really what's to lose?
You will not be able to hit a vein while in a hole or pinned.
They are not suggesting that this could be administered like an EPI shot slam into a thigh.

That would make for good Hollywood.
Like the super deep sea diving flicks.

Where this could have benefit is after a non breathing body or poorly functioning cardio victim is accessible in a reasonably controlled environment, a shot could be administered and perhaps a save ........
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,191 Posts
It's the Co2 concentration in your blood that stimulates your breathing rate. Without breathing doesn't the buildup of Co2 cause havoc?
 

·
Abron Cabron
Joined
·
612 Posts
really amazing idea, but not without huge issues..Rather then try and act all smart and stuff Here's a good comment from the bottom of the article.basically all in all, you still need to exhale your waste gases. (Carbon dioxide) to avoid metabolic acidosis. (buildup of Co2 as carbonic acid in the bloodstream when it cant be exhaled/excreted.)

"This technology could, in fact, be lifesaving when used in a case where the pt’s airway is obstructed, or their ability to breath on their own is otherwise compromised. The “military” and “private sector” examples given above, however, seem to show a gross misunderstanding of how respiration actually works. In addition to adding oxygen to the bloodstream (through inhaling), people also need to eliminate carbon dioxide (by exhaling). Breathing is, in and of itself, an involuntary reflex. Regardless of the presence of oxygen in your bloodstream, your lungs will continue to try and expand and contract. Think of the pressure/bursting sensation you sometimes get while holding your breath. That wouldn’t go away simply because a Navy SEAL had injected some oxygen microparticles. This technology wouldn’t necessarily prevent a person from drowning, but it may help to prevent some of the damage that can occur to the brain and other tissues…the risk of inhaling water would remain present, and great care would have to be taken in the case of a near-drowning to prevent the lung infections that can come along with the aspiration of water and other substances.
Definitely a promising technology, but it’s important to have our fact straight before we go touting numerous advantages."
- quote from Allison somebody or other.




As a Paramedic/FF i really like the potential emergency medicine applications. i could see it working really well on dry land, working a code or someone in impending respiratory failure. i would want to have IV access, cardiac and ETCO2 monitoring (end tital CO2 ) in place to manage the patients vital signs and oxygenation. but thats carrying an ambalance full of toys with you, like i do at work.

the only way this would work on the river (imho) off the top of my head, would be as a resuscitative measure once a person had been pulled from the water post drowning or cardiac/respiratory arrest. I could see carrying this in a reasonably small first aid kit . (among other things, i carry a cpr mask, 1 vial of EPI 1:1000, 50mg Benedryl for IM injection ,and an albuterol MDI in my little kit, with a couple syringes.all this would be for a severe allergic reaction or asthma..) .
(i couldnt recommend anyone else doing this because the question of medical direction for carrying ALS drugs in wilderness settings is a whole nother topic. if you have the training then you'll know what you can carry or not, or if you have an MD who will back you up for river trips.)

[BUT... you could get a an Epi-pen, albuterol MDI inhaler from as an Rx from a doc, and oral benedryl from a pharmacy... as a layperson if you had the need and gumption.;) ]

one last thing, having syringes (sharps) out in the middle of the river is pretty rediculous imo...the only way it would work, and this is still reaching.... it would have to be a prepackaged thing like an epi pen or atropine/2pam injection kits the military use for chemical/biological exposures. i would be busy trying to swim rather then trying to jab myself with anything. people harpoon themselves with epi pens all the time.you would have to be stationary, like in sieve. :shock:
now the rapid -air system or the like is a reasonable oh shit measure. (which Steve Fisher actually used on the Congo held down in a whirlpool. but props to him as he is super badass and crazy for even being there...)

Anchorless, good on ya for reading about stuff thats not on mountainbuzz. i oughter try it sometime....:mrgreen: but im at work.... i just daydream about being on the river unless something happens...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
339 Posts
This is also not IM or SQ, it has to go in a vein (thats where the O2 is theoretically going to need to be). So jabbing in a leg is not gonna do it, has to be in a vein- not very realistic in a pin. As brought up earlier, Unless they have a CO2 plan they are keeping a secret, this is going to be pretty limited. Body will not last long in the level of respiratory acidosis that comes about from not breathing for very long. Oxygen is only half the battle of breathing, as someone else mentioned.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,235 Posts
Could be a pretty cool ER tool to add to the ALS quiver.
 

·
Abron Cabron
Joined
·
612 Posts
This is also not IM or SQ, it has to go in a vein (thats where the O2 is theoretically going to need to be). So jabbing in a leg is not gonna do it, has to be in a vein- not very realistic in a pin. As brought up earlier, Unless they have a CO2 plan they are keeping a secret, this is going to be pretty limited. Body will not last long in the level of respiratory acidosis that comes about from not breathing for very long. Oxygen is only half the battle of breathing, as someone else mentioned.
good point. It does say "injected into the bloodstream" in the article.that is a wee bit more precise than an IM injection.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
950 Posts
Hey Billout. You mentioned the breaths being the difficult part of CPR. As a Doc I believe they are necessary and I will perform them when administering CPR...However, numerous classes and some scientific evidence supports only chest compressions as being necessary.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
339 Posts
Hey Billout. You mentioned the breaths being the difficult part of CPR. As a Doc I believe they are necessary and I will perform them when administering CPR...However, numerous classes and some scientific evidence supports only chest compressions as being necessary.
Compressions only is being pushed for layperson CPR for a couple of reasons from what I understand. 1- people are more likely to do it, because its less committing (hands on, but not lips on). 2. Layperson is less likely to be giving as effective compressions, so stopping for breaths slows already weak circulation. The professional rescuer is hopefully not solo, practices compressions (with active feedback via the computerized dummies, the Zoll, etc), and also has equipment to secure the airway so breaths are more effective.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,119 Posts
Hey Billout. You mentioned the breaths being the difficult part of CPR. As a Doc I believe they are necessary and I will perform them when administering CPR...However, numerous classes and some scientific evidence supports only chest compressions as being necessary.
Compressions only is being pushed for layperson CPR for a couple of reasons from what I understand. 1- people are more likely to do it, because its less committing (hands on, but not lips on). 2. Layperson is less likely to be giving as effective compressions, so stopping for breaths slows already weak circulation. The professional rescuer is hopefully not solo, practices compressions (with active feedback via the computerized dummies, the Zoll, etc), and also has equipment to secure the airway so breaths are more effective.
=========

I concur with both of you.

I was an EMT for most of the 1980's.
I have watched as Red Cross directed CPR as changed over the years.

Just for the casual reader - CPR has changed not necessarily for giving the most effective cardio.
You can see evidence of that somewhat by the above posts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,635 Posts
I've done cpr, and it was impossible not to breathe into his stomach and have him vomit. Air did get into his lungs too, but it was not pretty and I'm sure vomit did too. This was 27 years ago when we still did the physical head tilt and didn't worry about cervical damage. I can't imagine doing it now w barriers and no tilt, but I don't stay up on the latest technique.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
861 Posts
I think I've been watching too much of "The Walking Dead" because I keep thinking this new scientific technology is where the zombie disease got its start. One thing leads to another... scientists discover a particle to keep people alive without breathing... a few years later scientists expand on this discovery to keep people's motor skills working without life or breath. A few years later...Oh crap! Zombie Apocalypse! ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,119 Posts
I think I've been watching too much of "The Walking Dead" because I keep thinking this new scientific technology is where the zombie disease got its start. One thing leads to another... scientists discover a particle to keep people alive without breathing... a few years later scientists expand on this discovery to keep people's motor skills working without life or breath. A few years later...Oh crap! Zombie Apocalypse! ;)
So your script starts with kayakers who get addicted to big water, no stretch there, and end up addicted to O2 shots. They didn't see it coming, again no stretch.

This leads to the Zombie Killer Kayakers with a Dracula twist.
They can only leave a rapid at night and they need to inject rafters with excess CO2 for some hemoglobin in exchange. {Better not fall off your raft in daylight either.}

The Park Service placing them on a threatened list would be appropriate.

=======

Look at the Lincoln movie if you think that's too crazy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,191 Posts
So your script starts with kayakers who get addicted to big water, no stretch there, and end up addicted to O2 shots. They didn't see it coming, again no stretch.

This leads to the Zombie Killer Kayakers with a Dracula twist.
They can only leave a rapid at night and they need to inject rafters with excess CO2 for some hemoglobin in exchange. {Better not fall off your raft in daylight either.}

The Park Service placing them on a threatened list would be appropriate.

=======

Look at the Lincoln movie if you think that's too crazy.
No. They can't breath underwater so they need a way of expelling the Co2. So they urinate carbonated piss (in their dry suits, nonetheless). This is also, coincidentally, the same way they commercially produce beer in Golden, Colorado.
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top