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Discussion Starter #1
I am looking for information on the black canyon of the gunnison. I have been watching videos, reading reports and looking for information.

I could use some advice, what would be a good first time level and what is too low?

how much MUST be run blind if any, and how many v's must be run?

I would apreciate any advice, or videos or trip reports you might have, or know of that i can use for information.

post any videos or advice please, i'm going to try this one....


bob
 

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Bob builds.... I know somebody that knows that section pretty dam well.... 9702751890.... Captain Black420 crested butte... In Cali getting sand kicked in my face by tattooed muscle heads right now but call me in a few....
 

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Be less worried about what you have to run and more about what you have to walk. Extremely challenging portages to be done.
 

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600 is the minimum. Do not go if it is under 600. At low flows, most rapids are not that hard. I would compare the whitewater to Gore at lower flows, except that there are seives everywhere. You can paddle the whole run without making a class V move, but you will need to make several class IV moves above seives, and if you miss, you are going underground. Unless you are an experienced expedition boater, and I gather that you probably are not, you should only go with a guide who has done the run several times. I do not think you have to run anything blind, but if you are not comfortable running Class IV with doomy consequences on directions, the run will take forever. Also, the portage is pretty brutal. Have fun and be safe if you go.
 

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600 is a good first time level in my opinion, real creeky, too low to be pushy. The best advice I can think of is to be ready for a really long day, be good at carrying your boat, stay very hydrated and eat good energy food. An overnighter is harder than a one day trip and if you go with someone who knows the run well and moves fast it can be done efficiently, hell Jakub and another guy did two runs in a day. You can portage almost everything.
 

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Yea, and that other guy seems to be about ready to get married, put one or two on the ground, and really get to growing out his sweater.

Bob, it ain't that hard of whitewater (portage dependent), but you're gonna run some really dangerous rapids after difficult portages with a loaded boat. The first day on your first time will beat you down. Get a really early start, stay hydrated. Definitely need a guide.

The whitewater doesn't have to be harder than gore/bailey, but I wouldn't go unless you consider yourself very comfortable on those runs.
Joe
 

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If you are experienced with expedition paddling or want to get into that kind of paddling this is a great test piece. But if you are just looking to get in there and have a good trip in a cool place maybe a guide would be better. I recommend an overnight adventure, it is such an amazing place. As mentioned above me and jakook did 2 laps in a day with lap #2 coming in around 4 hours or so putin to chukar hike out, so it isn't that long of a run.
 

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Tom, proud work on the double lap with the Czech. 4 hour second lap? That's rugged. Did you route great falls from the top to save time?
 

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I plummeted on Warner trail that day but will get my double run in this season... Flows will hit 900 by october( emails from the men in green).... I underestimated the heat factor that day and went into the first stages of heat stroke.... 2 laps to chukar would be easier than going out my "shortcut" up Warner... It was thrown In the plan purely for the "torture factor"....,bob builds, when was your last swim?... What was he cause?.....you got my number if you want more details.... Skikayak365..... Been in twice this season..... And it's just getting to be the season.... Have you had the itch yet? Run your little boat in there yet? Got some solos under your belt yet?..... Just wondering... I was running that shit solo when you were collecting "happy-meal" toys from McDonald's....milozadik
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I think now, I need to be training harder before I go here. 2 laps on gore, 2 laps on bailey. and still plan on 2 days in the black. at 16 miles and a big hike out, it is going to be harder and longer, even going back to back days having never seen any of it I think i'm going to be zapped. I am going to keep asking questions and researching this one. I will keep talking to those who know, and gather information. Next year for sure, october november if i get the itch... er, my shit straight.
 

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I think now, I need to be training harder before I go here. 2 laps on gore, 2 laps on bailey. and still plan on 2 days in the black. at 16 miles and a big hike out, it is going to be harder and longer, even going back to back days having never seen any of it I think i'm going to be zapped. I am going to keep asking questions and researching this one. I will keep talking to those who know, and gather information. Next year for sure, october november if i get the itch... er, my shit straight.
And by 2 laps on Gore, I advise paddling through Kisrh and then a hike back up to Gore Rapid without setting foot on the railroad grade.
 

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I think that doing a 2 day in the Black for your first trip is what destroys people. Also the fall is a better time as the heat dissipates. With an early start of 7-8 am the one long day ( half day really = 12 hours) makes portaging and the hike out easier. If you don't plan on doing it again the heavy boat option may be for you. After getting a feel for the trip by doing a one day first an overnighter is easier to plan for and more enjoyable.

This is just my opinion and other boaters may feel differently.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
that is a great idea jeff, and sounds like my best bet. I could put on by 7am this fall and hopefully be out of there in the same day. I am talking with milo about this option, and there should be enough light to pull it off. I do thimk this is what i am going to try first. before i over night it. one day trip.
 

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I kind of see the point of how avoiding a loaded boat could make for an easier day and most of the heavier, commonly run whitewater comes in the first half. It does in some respects miss the point of doing the Black and cramming all the portages into one day somewhat negates the benefits of a slightly lighter boat. Given the nature of the run, the extra overnight weight is just a bag, pad, and a little extra food - not that much stuff.

In case the point has not been adequately made, if you get worked on Bailey/Gore/Big Thompson/Black Rock, typically it might mean some bumps and bruises, but it's not tragic. When you make mistakes in the Black Canyon, you have a good chance of going underground, which has a good chance of proving to be a death sieve. It's not a good place to make mistakes. "I've run Bailey" isn't a good criteria for the Black. I've run Bailey many many times, consistently running almost everything, and feeling in complete control, being able to catch lots of eddies and move exactly where I want to go without making mistakes is a better criteria. I've said my piece.
 

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Bob, load your overnight gear in your boat and get some laps on gore and bailey... Get that dialed and you'll feel less stressed if you get stressed at all in the M-BOX.....then take your fully loaded.boat to RED ROCKS AMPHITHEATER.... Wear and or wrap you boating clothes on yourself.... Then do laps up and down the steps for a few hours at least(NOTE: this will be easier than the portage terrain in the M-BOX).. But will allow you to deaden the nerves on your shoulders, answer silly questions by tourists, dial in your hydration requirements, dial in mental strength, look cool, score a babe, feel like dork, look like a dork, smell like ass, get concert tickets.....all of which will help you survive the DOOMSDAY CANYON experience....be sure to do this for a minimum of 3 hours..... portaging can be the crux for many boaters.... It requires more skill than you'd think....missed steps could mean a lost or broken boat, broken bones, blown knees or ankles, broken paddles, broken balls and broken dreams.....i got my masters degree in portaging in MONTROSE because I am a choad....choadlo420 cb....
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I understand what you guys are saying, and i am asking because i don't know. I feel like i need more time before I go in there, and have been working really hard these last few months to get my head straight and be mentally ready for shit like the black.

I plan on working gore and bailey much harder and never thought bailey would set me up for the black, but like ksc said, catch all the eddys, run it all and get super comfy in there will make me ready. or more so for the black.

I have nothing to prove and want to improve at the same time, it's running, not much else is.. so i'm curious. I will wait a while, and keep paddling with those who can help me get there.
 

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If you are being serious about trying to get into the M-Box with Milo you need to be 100% honest with him and yourself about what kind of condition your in. You are a big guy Bob and I foresee the portages and hiking as being very difficult for you...

Not to say you can't do it... and if you attempt it, I wish you the best of luck.
 

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Expeditionary kayaking...the essence of our sport. I say go for it, use good judgement, scout when necessary, walk when in doubt, and realize it'll always be there for another run so come back for what you missed.
 
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