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Discussion Starter #1
I recently went on a gates of ladore trip as a gear boater, so my friend and I shared cost on a demo wavesport from a shop I won't mention "yet". When we got to first night camp on a 4 day trip we realized that the hip pads were missing (I mean nothing but the thin plastic and velcro strips). This sucked since I wanted to demo the fit system, and I was falling out of the boat trying to do tricks on waves. When my friend returned the boat, she told them the story and they laughed it off, told her that most people don't even use hip pads, and sent her on her way feeling stupid, and a little pissed. we payed $65 to demo this boat and I want some compensation since we didn't get what we payed for.

I need some advise on how to handle this.

thanks all
 

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I'll agree that the "Most people don't use hip pads" comment is BS. It's a integral part of the boat for 90% of paddlers out there. I would say to get the shop to give you a comp demo of that boat (with the hip pads) or any other boat you might be interested in. Since you were interested in the outfitting that should be reasonable for both parties. Don't be a jerk becuase they essentially don't owe you anything. Sure it's their responsibility to make sure the boat is complete and respresents the product, but you have to double check to make sure it's all good. My $.02.
 

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Ask to speak to the owner/manager of the shop. Explain your situation, tell them that you are plugged in to the mountainbuzz community and you will explain your situation to thousands of potential customer be it a positive or negative outcome, let them decide how they react. Tell them that you aren't trying to pull a fast one on them, that you were truly disapointed with your experience.

Report back to us after you are done discussing with the shop. Don't say that they suck, or are assholes, etc. Just explain to everyone what happened, and don't leave anything out. Boaters will always support the shops that treat them right, and word gets around. My local shop treats me like family, and for good reason. I've spend a few $grand there, and I've introduced maybe 5 people to the sport of kayaking, some of which have blown tons of money at their shop as well...
 

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yeah, it's probably the fact I am still getting my legs under me, so to speak, but I was *amazed* at the difference it makes in your boat's handling and performance if you've got the hip pads a) in, and b) properly fitted.

This weekend was the first time it's been cool enough here to break out the hydroskin "britches," and the extra mm/cm or two those (ahem...) *sexy* pants added to my ass/ the snugness of the pad fit (snug but not tight, y'know?) made all the difference in the world! I liked my boat before (a Jackson fun), but after doing a couple of runs and really feeling "attached" to it, I felt like I'd never really seen how well the boat handled and responded before. I'm in agreement with John & WL: I don't think I realized until I had 'em in right just how much of a performance difference the hip pads make. Both of these guys had great suggestions, so I'm just gonna butt out now and tell you I'd have been disappointed, too.

Especially now that I've figured out what I was missing out on all along! :oops:
 

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minus foam

I have demo'd a few boats in the past few years and have never had a shop sales person provide hip pads/foam in a demo boat (without me asking for it). Usually this time of year the demo's are a bit used. If the shop supplied foam to every joe paddler that came in, the shop would not have any foam to sell to us. The typical demo person is new to the sport and would not know what the foam is for. I believe it was the fault of the joe who picked up the boat without inspecting it. Did they charge you for the foam you lost? If not, then call it a wash....

tdm
 

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have demo'd a few boats in the past few years and have never had a shop sales person provide hip pads/foam in a demo boat (without me asking for it). Usually this time of year the demo's are a bit used. If the shop supplied foam to every joe paddler that came in, the shop would not have any foam to sell to us. The typical demo person is new to the sport and would not know what the foam is for. I believe it was the fault of the joe who picked up the boat without inspecting it. Did they charge you for the foam you lost? If not, then call it a wash....
I don't think he's demoing a Godzilla. I'm sure this boat comes with a fat (or whatever the latest greatest is) outfitting system that has strap on pads with shims.

I enjoy hip pads in my boat, but then I wear a belt on my pants too.
 

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Take it to the net....

What ever you decide to do I would start by bringing it up on the net first, before taking it up with your local shop. That always works. (kidding of course) Shops love to work with people who slam first and ask second.

It is very possible that it was our boat. Did you ask for hip pads and take the time to dial yourself in before taking the boat out? Or, did you just have someone else pick-up the boat for you? It drives me crazy when people have other folks do everything for them expect a perfect detailed fit. Helmets are the best example. How in the world can you know someone else's head size and fit prefference?

I outfitted three folks this moring for demo boats. Only one out of the three wanted hip pads in the boat. Would I boat without hip pads... not by choice. But, that's just my choice. Others won't fit so they don't like them.

Liquid Logic does not have the greatest rental options when it comes to hip pads. Dagger had the air filler ones over the past few seasons and that really limited who could fit in their boats. Jackson has smaller seat trays than the others and we rarley use the factory hip pads in our beginner classes. WaveSport has a great system, and because of that it's often pouched and used in other boats. Just like the Jackson Foot Bag, it might not be what's supposed to be in there- but people want to try it in every boat. Float bags- are in all the boats, but some customers insist in removing them.

If you want to paddle a retail quality boat, you have two options. Buy a retail boat, or spend the extra time to personally outfit your boat before leaving the shop. If not, it may not be there from the person before you. We would much prefer you take the time to fit the boat before you leave the shop. It saves use many many hours of work repairing the demo boats and replacing stripped out parts that other folks damage trying to fit boats at the river.

We all need to work together on this one. When it's all out in the public, people need to hear both sides. Internet is great for finding directions and poor for setting disputes.

Give us a call and we'll comp you for a sameday rental, spend sometime in the shop and that boat will be as prefect as we can get it. Nothing will ever be as good as adjusting every position and customizing the foam. It just takes time.
 

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Yea, I had the same thing happen at the same shop 2 years ago. Yea, it's annoying. They weren't very apologetic. I learned my lesson and now I check the equipment carefully and they always give me what I ask for. Perhaps they should just say "check the outfitting" before you grab the boat.

To the store's credit, other times they have been very good about rental equipment. The problem is that their 2-3 employees can get busy when 5 customers walk into their shop. I'd rather get my boat and go rather than wait 30 minutes.

Also, I'm amazed at how cheap the rental boats are here in Denver. In each of 4 places where I've rented boats (Deerfield, Asheville, Reno, California), the boats cost twice as much to rent. And the knowledge and service is the best here, even if all the salesmen didn't go to charm school. I'd rather have the knowledge and service than the charm.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
thanks all for your input, they were all very helpfull. I didn't pick up the boat, and I agree that it should have been checked over, but the hip pads were completely gone, in a boat the advertises comfort and control, not just foam glued in. why wouldnt a shop make sure there boats were complete when they send them out. do they not check them upon return. I'm a ski tech in the winter, and have dealt with screw ups, which usually ends up in refund of money or free demo, depends on if the customer can ski the next day. I'm from out of town, so a free demo does me no good.

It's a tough deal, I'm not trying to be an asshole, just trying to be fare.

thanks again all!!
 

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Hate to say it, but buyer be aware. It is up to you or whoever picks up the boat to make sure it fits or is capable to. Maybe that comes from experience, but if you were a newbie in the same shop, they would probably take the time to show you things like outfitting options. If you walk-in & tell them the boat you want and not ask any questions they will probably assume you know your [email protected]

Those boys at Confluence are more than fair and are good at what they do. Call them first. It was good of you not to name names.

Steve.
 

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Don,
What's the general feedback you're getting on the Jackson footbag system? I'm not affiliated in any way, BTW-- just trying to figure out what people's experiences have been: if there's anything I don't like about my boat, it's that no matter how I inflate, deflate, push, prod, or otherwise manipulate the thing, I can't seem to get it "right." My legs are going numb after about (literally) two minutes on the water, and I'm just about to pack it in and replace it with a foam bulkhead instead....

Don't mean to hijack, just thought you might have some insight??

Thank you :)
 

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Footbags.

Newby,

The Jackson Footbags are really cool. They might not be for everyone, some folks just perfer something different. But, in the right application they are perfect. Jackson has been pretty quite about any changes, but they have been happening. The hose length is longer, the pump is better, and the quality has been great. I was very nervous when they first came out. I'm not the quickest to jump onto new technology. But, over the past couple of seasons I've been blown away on how well the bags have held up.

Like just about anything in life different people prefer different things. Some like foam and others like the bag. If you want the same fit everytime you get in the boat, and have time to dial in you footing: than foam might be for you. If you chage boats, change shoes, and you want adjustability on the fly- get a Jackson Footbag.

They have been great for our rental fleet. With so many companies out there demanding customized foam to really enjoy the boat. A footbag is the only way to go for demoing. If we didn't have them: we'd be getting slammed on the net for not providing the perfect footfoam for every boat demo. Now we just throw and go.

One thing to make sure is that you set-up the bag. It's not a given that it will be perfect each time. You need to do a few of things to get the perfect fit.

1) Preshape the bag with your hands. Create a pocket on each side for your feet to slide into. Gives a nice comfy rap around toes.
2) Lock in your desired shape. Have the valve open before getting in. Make the shape you want by pushing your feet into the bag, and then close the valve.
3) Adjust your fit. Now add air until you get the support you desire.

It's as easy as 1,2,3.

You can go to www.jacksonkayak.com for better instructions and details for performance. It's a great system, and the best footbag on the market.
 

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Nube,

You legs going numb has everything to do with your leg position and more importantly your backband impinging upon your sciatic nerve...the largest nerve in your body. It comes out of a plexus just behind your pelvis and if your backband is tight and low your legs will go numb. F with the position of your backband...or just loosen it up a bit.
 

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If your hip pads arn't cut and trimmed right they can cut your femoral artery off causing your legs to go numb. I personally crank my back band as tight as it can go and havnt had a problem with circulation from that, but thats just me. If you can feel the front part of your hip pad pushing on the upper part of your thigh giver a little trim trim... As far as foot bags go there great for demo boats and people who dont know how to cut foam. I thought they were a great idea tell I actually got to use one and found it to be very comfy but far from high performance. Kind of like filling your bow with warm wet mud or poop, it feels good and squeshy around your feet tell you go and push against it while throwing down in a hole and it just goes ffffffaaarrrtttt and dosnt give you something solid to push against......
Good luck finding what works best for you.
MM
 

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Discussion Starter #15
well......back to the point.

I'm certainly not going to be demoing or buying anything else at this shop, and it sounds like you know who you are. My money is as green and anybody's, and I hate getting ripped off (%$#& buyer beware) be a good business and don't hose the paying customer. I've spent money at you store, but I won't anymore.

As far as wanting a perfect fit and the fact that you hate it when people pick boats up for other people. I didn't expect a perfect fit, it's a demo boat for christ sake, and I wanted a complete one.

Thanks for taking my hard earned cash, as little as it may be!!
 

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Roper, as an outsider looking in, I think you are being unreasonable. Take the free rental and outfit in the shop like Don advised.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
does this mean I get 4 days of rental, since I was on a multiday trip with no outfitting, trying to attached rolled up towels in the boat the first night in camp when I should have been enjoying coctails??
 

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I will have to agree with gh but I am not exactly an outsider. I purchased my first boat from Don and John. I was definetly the pain in the ass customer. I must have gone back in there 10 times or more trying to get the outfitting right. I was quite certain they were going to start charging me for the hords of foam I was going through or for their time catering to my newbie whinning ass. They never did though. They did their best to make that damn boat fit and never bitched about it. I'm not saying their faces lit up with glee when I walked through door or anything but like Stiff said, one of the individuals there is no charmer, he does know his shit and won't feed you line of crap though.

For what its worth, I demo'd boats from several shops this year. None of them had hip pads. Fortunately I have a set of the Salamander hip pads, you might look into them, that way you can just put them in whichever boat you want and they are formed to you. Sounds like you were just a victim of holding your expectations higher than the industry standard.

After my recent experiences I think you should be happy there was a shop that your could actually get a boat from. I just got back from paddling on the Ottawa River and your only option for anything there is a long drive back in to the town of Ottawa (about 2 hours) or wait for Friday - Sunday for the Boatwerks trailer (which is great) to open. It made for a long night to replace some forgotten gear. It definetly made me respect the local shops we have here.
 

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Geez Roper, make sure the next time you demo a boat that you are the one that picks it up at the shop. You can then sit in the boat and they can supply the outfitting you need. That's what most people do when they pick up the boat they are renting and have no issues. Had you gone in to pick up your own rental, you would not have anything to bitch about.

You wouldn't have anyone go pick up a rental mountain bike say, in Moab would you? Would the shop have to supply your pick up person a bag with different stems, handlebars, pedals and seats with their rental? No way! You get what you pick up at the shop.

Lighten up on the shop - you are more at fault than they are. Take them up on their offer and do it right, even if it isn't another 4 day rental. It's a fair offer from a good shop. Go have a cocktail.
 
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