Thats totally lame!! They say they aren't allowing it because people weren't paying. Now they have nobody paying. Were as before, they had alot of people paying and a few sneaking in. I doubt if they're going to enforce this no entry rule from the col. river side.
Havasupai aren't allowing rafters to hike up Havasu
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It's their land - what little they have left after the white people invaded this land, they can do as they please.
I find your post ironic since white people were originally not welcome but took over the country and are now complaining about not being able to visit the minute area still left to the people who lived here before us for thousands of years.
I find your post ironic since white people were originally not welcome but took over the country and are now complaining about not being able to visit the minute area still left to the people who lived here before us for thousands of years.
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How did you come by this information? None of the classic GC boating sources are listing the closure yet. If so....
Can't blame them. When people don't cooperate the next option is compliance. How would you handle it if people were constantly using your property illegally?
As for the money issue....I doubt they made much money from these river permits. I assume they make a ton more money from top down hikers, helicopter tours, etc.
Can't blame them. When people don't cooperate the next option is compliance. How would you handle it if people were constantly using your property illegally?
As for the money issue....I doubt they made much money from these river permits. I assume they make a ton more money from top down hikers, helicopter tours, etc.
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So from my little experience (one trip) we hiked up to beaver falls...no one was there collecting money or anything and we could have continued. This was early April. We were planning to hike the whole way but decided not to anyways. We tried to contact them about a permit beforehands and weren't able to reach anyone. When I asked the NPS about this, they said that was normal so if we hiked all the way up, just carry the $35 on us and if we bumped into a ranger, just pay them then. If not...
Just talked to Havasupai Tourist Office. With the hopes of paying to enter their land while on a raft trip on GC. The women said they are not allowing ANYONE to enter the Havasupai land from the col. river side. I can respect that it IS their land and they CAN do what they want with it. After doing a trip into Havasupai Village from the other end (the rim down). I can tell you they don't have as much respect for the land as you may think. Many of the houses in the village yards are covered with candy wrappers, soda cans, and every type of rubbish imaginable. They are good people no doubt. But it seems unreasonable for them to deny rafters the chance to visit this amazing place. Especially when people are willing to pay the $35 or how ever much it is. It seems like most rafters are only going to hike as far as Beaver falls anyway. Much farther then Beaver falls takes almost an entire day. So if anyone else has been in there recently...can you post your experience as far as being able to access the havasu creek. From the mouth where you tie up rafts on up to as far as you hiked. THX.
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Neither I nor my family stole from natives, but yet I constantly get accused of being a land thief. Racism is wrong on either side of the fence, and there are many natives that blame whites as a whole for their problems. I have many native friends. Some are like that, and some aren't. When it comes down to it no river should be blocked from access.
I think spaghetti has it about right. You don't need to be native to respect wild places and do native Americans have any more love thin you or me for this land ? The Grand Canyon and it s side canyons are indescribable and take some of us to another place.
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Let me spell it out for you in no uncertain terms- if you're not descended from one of the once great native tribes that once "owned" this great land, your forefathers were illegal immigrants and you're an "anchor baby". I placed the term "owned" in quotes because all but a few of the native tribes had no concept of " land ownership" until the blue eyes arrived and divvy'd up the land as they saw fit, "generously donating" the scraps to the only true "Americans" among us. Quannah would have dined on your heart, and claimed your scalp as a trophy.
And for what it's worth, I'm an "anchor baby" myself, but at least I know it.
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After being decimated by disease our forefathers shipped all of the indigenous people of what is now the U.S. onto reservations with very little land that was useful to them and their skill set.
After years and years of reproduction most reservations do not have enough land to support their people as their population is no longer being wiped out by smallpox and other European diseases.
I have read a lot and I agree they don't always care for their land - they sometimes have a feeling that eventually things will "go back" to the way it was but that won't happen anytime soon.
So, in short, I agree with Slave.
After years and years of reproduction most reservations do not have enough land to support their people as their population is no longer being wiped out by smallpox and other European diseases.
I have read a lot and I agree they don't always care for their land - they sometimes have a feeling that eventually things will "go back" to the way it was but that won't happen anytime soon.
So, in short, I agree with Slave.
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Another good read- Empire of the midnight sun.
Cherokees were the ultimate badasses of the native tribes.
Cherokees were the ultimate badasses of the native tribes.
So, have the Havasupai have occupied the land there in Havasu forever and ever, or were they too invaders to an earlier culture?
As far as white guilt goes, I never stole land from a "native american", my parents never stole land from them, my grand parents never stole land from them, my great grandparents never stole land from them. Should I feel as if "my people" stole land from them? I don't.
I agree that landowners have the right to control access to their private land, but I no longer buy into the white guilt concept that I am responsible for their bad times hundreds of years ago.
FYI, I have lived near and among native americans for years. I think some of them are great folks, just like some white folks are good folks, and some black folks are good folks. There are good and bad people among all cultures.
As far as white guilt goes, I never stole land from a "native american", my parents never stole land from them, my grand parents never stole land from them, my great grandparents never stole land from them. Should I feel as if "my people" stole land from them? I don't.
I agree that landowners have the right to control access to their private land, but I no longer buy into the white guilt concept that I am responsible for their bad times hundreds of years ago.
FYI, I have lived near and among native americans for years. I think some of them are great folks, just like some white folks are good folks, and some black folks are good folks. There are good and bad people among all cultures.
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I have read just about everything written about the native americans, have studied them and grew up in a tipi with parents who lived off the land just as they did. We lived with the Hopi/Navajo and learned many things from them.
They have evolved just as the white man has...and are not as they used to be.
The land is theirs.. even though our founders may have had good intentions, we took what we wanted with complete disregard.
The best book I have read is Black Elk Speaks. I highly recommend it to anyone. Bury my Heart is a good overview and covers a lot of history, but Black Elk is deep.
Tread lightly on this earth, as I believe that we are all guests here.
They have evolved just as the white man has...and are not as they used to be.
The land is theirs.. even though our founders may have had good intentions, we took what we wanted with complete disregard.
The best book I have read is Black Elk Speaks. I highly recommend it to anyone. Bury my Heart is a good overview and covers a lot of history, but Black Elk is deep.
Tread lightly on this earth, as I believe that we are all guests here.
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Well said Falling up!!!Fallingup said:
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It is my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) that they are actually American Indians and have ties with the Hopis back in early days. About 600-800 years ago. The feds forced them out of nearly all of their land in this region. They are holding on to what is left and there is just a couple of hundred acres. They had some treaty's but they lost nearly all their land anyway. Not sure how that went down.
No one is asking you to feel "guilty" that our people stole from anyone. History is history. I do not take responsibility for actions my ancestors may have taken and I dont feel guilty. I do feel sorrow and loss for those times.
I agree with you, there are good and bad people in all cultures, races and so on.
But I do have a serious problem with anyone who has a sense of entitlement. Yes, these places are wonderful and beautiful and maybe both parties can find a way to agree on peace. But in my opinion, we are not entitled to anything.
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