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I know that on the Salmon you need one that is reusable, washable, water tight and SCAT machine or RV dump compatible. If you have something with a snap on lid (ammo cans, plastic buckets) they are supposed to have a rubber gasket in the lid. WAG bags, restop 2 or any other plastic bag system are not accepted
So if I bring my PETT system and have an ammo can on my raft, can I claim the rubber gasket ammo can as my groover (after all, isn't that where the term groover came from? LOL) and still do my business in peace, into sealable bags that I can throw away, and don't have to mess with the crappy job of cleaning it out?

Never been on the Salmon, but good to know for when I do...
 

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So if I bring my PETT system and have an ammo can on my raft, can I claim the rubber gasket ammo can as my groover (after all, isn't that where the term groover came from? LOL) and still do my business in peace, into sealable bags that I can throw away, and don't have to mess with the crappy job of cleaning it out?

Never been on the Salmon, but good to know for when I do...

I know for sure they are legal on the Middle Fork. I know that several friends have used them on the Main. Maybe they were in violation, but I thought the MF and Main had the same toilet rules.
 

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Nothing I can see about not using Wag bags or PETT system. They ask you not to use them for large groups but it seems like the main requirement is to transport the waste off the river.

From this website:
Salmon-Challis National Forest - Recreational Activities

"""Human Waste Carry-out Requirements: All boating parties on the Wild Section of the Main Salmon River are REQUIRED to carry a porta-potty with sufficient capacity to carry out all human and pet feces for their group.
One simple way of transporting solid waste is to use airtight ammo boxes. Commercial units are widely available and may be a good investment if you plan to run a lot of rivers. Compact dry toilet systems (waste alleviation and gelling) are not SCAT machine compatible and will only be acceptable for the Human Waste Carry-out Requirements on the Main and Middle Fork Salmon Rivers if they meet EPA Group II waste standards and their waste bags can be disposed of in landfills. These systems must be accompanied by a waterproof hard-shell container to hold the used waste bags. It is recommended that the gel bag system only be used for emergency day use. Large amounts of human waste belong in a treatment system, not the landfill.​
Your equipment will generally include:​

  • Commercial porta-potty or ammo cans (the big ones commonly 18”x8”x14”). Sand and paint the inside of your potty for ease in emptying and washing. Coat with a non-stick spray or cooking oil before use. The number of people and the length of the trip determine the number of cans or tanks (a person generates approx. 1 lb. of waste per day). It usually takes one large ammo can to hold 70 to 80 person-days of waste, so for an 8-day, 10-person trip, you would only need one ammo can for waste and one for equipment.
  • Toilet seat and toilet paper
  • Deodorant chemical that is compatible with the SCAT machine
  • Hand-washing bucket, soap, and a garbage container (sack) for feminine hygiene items, wipes and other items that do NOT go into the porta-potty (because they will plug up the SCAT machine).
  • Straps to secure the toilet to the SCAT machine for cleaning (usually two 3-foot straps for ammo cans, longer ones for bucket and some commercial types)."""""

 

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Regarding the eco-safe. I just returned from a GC adventure where groover capacity was estimated to fill two eco-safe tanks so we had three tanks along. The "empties" were stowed with river water in them as ballast but I have thought they could also be used to carry other material such as charcoal and fire ash. The only tank we kept in a 20 was the tank in use as they have no carry handle and get quite heavy as they fill.

I have used an eco tank without the 20 on short trips or longer IK adventures with good results. The tank is stable and withstands the abuse; I have not had or heard of an eco tank failing although that would be catastrophic.

As long as one only puts shit and TP into the Eco, cleaning is straightforward. A gallon of water added in at tank change time really makes the poo flow well. I have been using the sewer cleanout pipe outside of the house for dumping and that works better than having to deal with it while on the road and perhaps in crappy weather. I use Pinesol for tamer as I cannot abide with adding more toxins (formaldahyde) to our waters. It works well enough and more can be added as needed.

It is my opinion the five gallon bucket system is more likely to come apart. I shipped Wag Bags in Gamma sealed plastic fives on another GC trip and did not care for the daytime off-gassing much at all.

As far as the eco seat goes, I do not waste the space in a 20 to carry it along. A good scrubbing each day and it is ready to be strapped in somewhere. It is waterproof afterall. I smile each time I hear some would be complain about his pride and joy getting hung up in the tray. Most guys have enough common sense to keep it outta places like that.
 

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It is my opinion the five gallon bucket system is more likely to come apart. I shipped Wag Bags in Gamma sealed plastic fives on another GC trip and did not care for the daytime off-gassing much at all.
You really do have to use a poo-killer with a gamma lid. I use the blue liquid RV stuff, add a bit every day and there are no problems. I also have a webbing harness that goes over the lid. It serves to provide lash down points, and also secures the lid to hopefully contain any potential failure in case of a flip. We do also have gear piled on it, and everything is tied down to death, so I'm pretty sure unless the gear pile got ripped apart, it would stay closed in a flip.

One on main Salmon trip the rv stuff was forgotten, and there was plenty of off-gassing (100+ degrees). Pew.
 

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Glad you like it. Must be nice to have $400 to drop on a shit holder.

They are good toilets, but why does anything less than your gold standard become not a "real" groover?[/QUOTE]


Carvedog,
Good sir and fellow river runner, my post was simply ment to express my opinion and my happiness at the performance of a specific waste system. It is what I currently use and would give a strong recommendation to anyone considering a similar system. The post was not ment piss in anyone's cheerios or disparage any other system, homemade or manufactured.

Now since you asked me a direct question, here is my opinon of a "real" groover system. It is one that you never have to think about. You never wonder if some uptight Forest Service/BLM/FWP employee will say that your system is not acceptable on this river. It never crosses your mind that if your system were to be tipped, banged, smashed, mishandled, poorly packed, or anyhting else, that the contents will be all over your boat or gear. A real groover system is simple peace of mind, you are confident that it will do what it is designed for without problems. If you can make one at home for $20 and it works well then you are smarter than me and IMHO have a "real" groover.

Respectfully,
Mark
 

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I agree that the main requirement is to transport the waste off the river. I feel that if the agencies are going to provide an RV dump station or SCAT machine near or at the take outs then we as river runners should have compatible groovers to properly dispose of human waste. “Large amounts of human waste belong in a treatment system, not the landfill.” I know for the Salmon there are SCAT machines in Riggins, ID as well as Asotin, WA. There are also RV dump stations along the Lower Salmon at Slate Creek and Hammer Creek Rec sites.
It is a little confusing because some rivers allow the WAG bags and some don’t. This is what I found on a BLM site
“EPA regulations prohibit dumping solid human waste into garbage receptacles and landfills.”
A groover that can be cleaned in a SCAT machine or RV dump station would be the best option for the environment and is actually really easy to do. I have used both the bag system and the SCAT/RV compatible groovers and I prefer to dispose my crap into a treatment system.
 

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I'm looking for a catalyst that would turn brown waste into a form that could be extruded into 2"d x 3" long billets that would harden and become truly solid waste. One of my buddies at the foundry is casting this bronze cannon ...
 

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I find the restop bags far superior to the PETT ones, and use them for overnights when I don't want to clean a standard groover. They as well have a nice seat that fits on a regular 5 gal bucket if you're the comfort centric individual.
 

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Ok - I'm new here and I just got done reading the 3 most resent threads on groovers. all of your commits were very helpful but, I still have a questions. Which one takes up the least amount space and works everywhere? I have a smaller 14' boat - Super Duper Puma - so I'm trying to conserve space. The biggest trip would be 2 to 3 people for 3 to 5 day's. It sounds like everyone thinks the 20-mm ammo can with or without the Eco-safe system is the smallist but, I just want to confirm. I've seen the small Kayak ones but those don't look very reliable. I also don't like the idea of my junk laying the tray but, if it's the smallist option than I'll find a way to deal with it.:cool: Thank T
The small eco-safe boombox is ideal for your requirement of 2 to 3 people for 3 to 5 days. It is rated to 20 units. I've used a boombox from Baja for small sea kayak trips to doing Illinois/Selway small group self supports. It is essentially a eco-safe without the 20mm rocket box and unexpected degassing odors during the day have never been a problem. If it is I suggest burping it from time to time. The boombox is the last thing I load before putting in the bulkhead in my Katana 10.4 kayak when doing longer self-supports with my SO and it fits no problem.
 

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I second Ron's recommendation of the eco safe 20 use boom box. I have one I use on two person trips and power boat trips. I keep mine in an old school dry bag.
 

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I like my Ecosafe. It's a decent toilet for the money. They do have less capacity (40-50 user-days) and would be good only for large group overnights/3-days...or smaller groups for multidays.
I like the suggestion to use the Ecosafe tank sans rocket box...and IMHO taking another standalone rocket box for just the Ecosafe lid is a waste of space and weight.

The Jonny Partner is the Cadillac, but I don't see it as a better value than the Coyote or Selway. It is larger, harder, and heavier than the other two...I definitely see its value for sustained commercial use, but it doesn't hold significantly more than the Coyote or Selway....I'd suggest they or the 20mm standalone with a riser lid are optimal for multiday private trips with larger groups. Taking a LOT of Ecosafes for larger groups on multidays is a waste of space.
 
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