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Ok - I'm new here and I just got done reading the 3 most resent threads on groovers. all of your commits were very helpful but, I still have a questions. Which one takes up the least amount space and works everywhere? I have a smaller 14' boat - Super Duper Puma - so I'm trying to conserve space. The biggest trip would be 2 to 3 people for 3 to 5 day's. It sounds like everyone thinks the 20-mm ammo can with or without the Eco-safe system is the smallist but, I just want to confirm. I've seen the small Kayak ones but those don't look very reliable. I also don't like the idea of my junk laying the tray but, if it's the smallist option than I'll find a way to deal with it.:cool: Thank T
 

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Your best bet for running any river without hassle from the rangers is the 20mm ammo can type system with a liquid type additive. We used to just use a bucket and very dry peat moss. Just line the bucket with a bag, pour in a little peat moss, do your business, and top with a little peat moss. We cut out a groove in the underside of a toilet lid to match the diameter of the bucket to make a nice stable base. Just about the same height as a real toilet. The peat moss does a good job of eliminating odors and moisture. This system is not allowed on some rivers.
 

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While cheap 20mm cans are heavey and not exactly compact. The inserts are expensive. You are from washington, so am I, You have a super duper puma, I also run one on week long trips. All of the following rivers within 1 long days drive of Seattle accept 5-gallon bucket/gamma seal lid groovers (which are scat machine compatible). Andy and Bax in portland sells a handy sling for these with multiple D-rings for strapping it on (strap -on Yo!). These rivers are 5 gallon/gamma cool:

Deschutes,
John Day,
Owyhee,
Rogue,
Illinois,
Grande Ronde,
All sections of the Salmon,
Bruneau,
Jarbidge,
Selway

Once you get done with all these rivers (well over 1000 miles of miltiday remotenes) you can spend another $100+ on an "upgrade"

No the 5 gallon bucket does not take up too much space. Here is a super super with the kitchen sink and still not overloaded for a week.
Note that the photo does not show the handy AnyandBax slings which I just saw and baught last week for $14.95
 

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I run a Super Duper too and use the eco-safe's. I usually stow em(one ammo can for tank,one can for lid) directly behind me,in the stern. I think there's just enough room for them to go side by side,along your frame. I use the clam shell bag thing in the stern bay. Can't remember the proper name of it right now.
 

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If it's allowed on the rivers you plan to run check out the PETT toilet with WAG bags. You can put the waste in any size ammo can you want and the fold up toilet is light weight and really easy to stow. I use it for lots of shorter trips when I don't want to mess with tanks. Even if you choose to use a full size rocketbox for your poop, you won't need another for the lid, etc.

I use a dry bag for clean TP, chemicals, etc. since it can handle a little squishing.
 

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Down River Equipment

These slings come in handy sometimes too. Sometimes i'll sling one in the footbay to carry the toilet lid/tp/brush ammo can. You don't want the shitter tank ridin shotgun next to ya. Lotta people try to keep their footbay clear,but,lets face it,you're kinda limited for week longs with the SDPuma and you gotta make use of every inch in that thing most times. Depending on how many u are supporting. I think the most i've supported,was 3 for 7days in this boat. It's a great boat though...like a sportscar!

The ammo can system isn't the greatest system but works well. They sound a lil more lenient in the NW though so you could probably def. get away with something a lot less bulky. Eco-safe's work well for me though,i like how bomber they are and re-usable,acceptable anywhere(seems to be more an issue here in CO/ID/UT),etc...cleaning them out sucks but that's life...pray for more scat machines.
 

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PETT toilet

If it's allowed on the rivers you plan to run check out the PETT toilet with WAG bags. You can put the waste in any size ammo can you want and the fold up toilet is light weight and really easy to stow. I use it for lots of shorter trips when I don't want to mess with tanks. Even if you choose to use a full size rocketbox for your poop, you won't need another for the lid, etc.

I use a dry bag for clean TP, chemicals, etc. since it can handle a little squishing.
The BLM on the Deschutes wont accept the PETT toilet. Rogue BLM will. Dunno about the others. As I've said on other threads, I'm a PETT toilet fan.
 

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Can't find those 5 gallon bucket slings on Andy & Bax website. Help please.
KJ
 

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Forgot - I use the bucket, Gamma lid set up. Have used it on the Main Salmon, Middle Fork, Deso, Snake, San Juan with no problems from the river cops. It fits perfect in a scat machine, and is also easy to clean at an RV dump. Cheap, easy to put together, easy to carry, and comfortable to use. What's not to love.
KJ
 

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I'm a PETT system fan myself. Just bought one this year. The toilet itself is really small, and it comes with a backpack to carry it and stow it in. Seal your poop in double bags (the one you poop in and then a ziplock to put that one in) and then those go into the trash. I don't know all the rivers it's allowed on, but you can ALWAYS fall back on an ammo can for those that don't.

I also popped for the tent that goes with it (which you could do with any system). Nice for really sunny places or on rainy days. Also good for the wives that like their privacy (like mine)...
 

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I also popped for the tent that goes with it (which you could do with any system). Nice for really sunny places or on rainy days. Also good for the wives that like their privacy (like mine)...
One word of warning with that tent. Be very careful stowing and unstowing. I was just on a trip and it got twisted putting it into the stuff sack, and could not be untwisted. A few people spent over an hour trying, then had to remove and replace the fabric. I'm pretty sure that it got twisted by inserting the end with the most fabric, and someone trying to twist the fabric around it (kind of like an umbrella) and all went to hell. I took over the rig/unrig of this tent, and felt it was safest to put the legs in first, and then just shove the fabric end in. FWIW, many people were ready to just burn it!
 

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The Bucket, Gamma Lid Setup

cataraftgirl - Getting ready for the San Juan and looking for a toilet a little more compact than a rocketbox or two. Your Bucket, Gamma Lid setup sounds much better. What do you use for chemical to keep the nasties down? I've heard from different folks that this setup is both messy and easy at RV dumps...you must be doing something right. Any advice?

Forgot - I use the bucket, Gamma lid set up. Have used it on the Main Salmon, Middle Fork, Deso, Snake, San Juan with no problems from the river cops. It fits perfect in a scat machine, and is also easy to clean at an RV dump. Cheap, easy to put together, easy to carry, and comfortable to use. What's not to love.
KJ
 

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I'm not sure that it's more compact than a rocket box, but it's a lot lighter & cheaper than an Ecosafe in a rocket box. If you go to Stupid Guide Tricks Home Page there's a description & pictures of the set-up. It's super easy clean-up in a Scat machine. RV dump requires more "finesse" shall we say, and more tolerance for messiness. But it's not that bad if you use some rubber gloves and a toilet brush for thorough cleaning.
For use, I find it preferable to the Ecosafe. The small "poo chute" on the Ecosafe gets pretty messy I have found. With the bucket, the target is quite large. Some folks don't like putting the toilet seat on & off with each use, but our group has never found it to be a big deal. Just wash your hands when you're done. Some folks aren't too keen on the visualization factor of the poo in the bucket, but again, not a big deal for us. After you sprinkle your "deposit" with blue RV chemicals it's pretty much covered. If you use a 5 gal. or 7 gal. bucket, the seat height is very comfy.
Sorry for a rather gross posting, but we're talking about toilets. Nothing glamorous. Hope this info helps.
KJ
 

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The Bucket, Gamma Lid Setup

Thanks for the great info on a necessary topic...the Stupid Guide Tricks Home Page is a nice resource.
-jrh

I'm not sure that it's more compact than a rocket box, but it's a lot lighter & cheaper than an Ecosafe in a rocket box. If you go to Stupid Guide Tricks Home Page there's a description & pictures of the set-up. It's super easy clean-up in a Scat machine. RV dump requires more "finesse" shall we say, and more tolerance for messiness. But it's not that bad if you use some rubber gloves and a toilet brush for thorough cleaning.
For use, I find it preferable to the Ecosafe. The small "poo chute" on the Ecosafe gets pretty messy I have found. With the bucket, the target is quite large. Some folks don't like putting the toilet seat on & off with each use, but our group has never found it to be a big deal. Just wash your hands when you're done. Some folks aren't too keen on the visualization factor of the poo in the bucket, but again, not a big deal for us. After you sprinkle your "deposit" with blue RV chemicals it's pretty much covered. If you use a 5 gal. or 7 gal. bucket, the seat height is very comfy.
Sorry for a rather gross posting, but we're talking about toilets. Nothing glamorous. Hope this info helps.
KJ
 

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Cataraft girl mentions putting the seat on and off with each use. I took another gamma lid, cut a hole in the center screw in part, and screwed a toilet seat to that. Groover set up includes screwing the toilet seat onto the groover and it stays until broken down in the AM. It works quite nice.

I use blue goo, RV stuff, kill that crap dead with formaldehyde! Add a bit each day and make sure you get some liquid so it can disperse. I haven't found anything else that works and is tolerable.
 

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Also a fan of the PETT system, but don't know where it isn't accepted. You could always poop in a kayak, they are accepted everywhere... LOL
 

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Rocket boxes are designed to be stacked and you could probably park a tank over them. they have sharp stack guides on the top and sides have cross diagonal metal used for thus purpose, which makes them not so nice for a boat. I have drilled out the rivet welds, removed the diagonals, and ground down the tabs in order to smooth out the box and make it fit better in a frame. Still this is an extra 20lbs with the only advantage is you can still stand on the box with the toilet inside, and maybe a sewer gas smell as the ecosafes do vent. On the next trip, I'm contemplating not even being bringing the rocket box because I think I can just get by slinging the eco-safe box in between the members of my frame. Anyone have experience using the Eco safe without the rocket box?
 
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