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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I am not sure how this got posted in the trip planner forum, sorry! Would someone with the power mind moving it to gear talk? Thanks.

I am planning on some trips next summer where I might be the only raft, so it appears that I am going to have to equip my boat with a proper groover instead of mooching. I have searched and read the past groover threads, and it seems that there is some inconsistency in what is or isn't passable for a groover on various river sections.

It sounds like the Eco-safe is pretty universally acceptable, but it is a bit on the pricey side for occasional use. On the other hand, the old rocket box and WAGG bag set up is not acceptable on rivers that require a "washable and reusable" system.

The ones that I am not sure about are essentially the home-made washable reusable type, either adding an RV cleanout to a rocket box lid, or to a gamma lid for a 5 gallon bucket. This seems like a lower cost alternative to the Eco-safe, that would still pass muster at the put in?

These seem ideal because they would allow for the use of a WAGG bag on short trips that allow them in order to avoid the trip to the dump station, while still OK for trips on Ruby/Horsethief, Desolation, and Westwater. Does anyone have any experience with either of these solutions in terms of getting the go ahead from NPS,BLM,etc. at the put in?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and experiences
 

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Moved, as requested.
 

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It depends on the river, the regs vary. I believe the only guaranteed-anywhere system is the rocket box system, either with or without ecosafe. I use the gamma seal lid, and I'm pretty sure it's NOT universally accepted, especially areas with Parks regs.
 

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Vote for eco-safe. While yes, a bit pricey, it's a one-time cost. Forever. You don't need to buy anything else but bleach and TP. RV connections allow cleanout easy. And if you look, RV dump stations can be found for free or for way cheap. It's universially acceptable. Heck, you can even use it camping for comfy grooving instead of squatting over a hole in the woods. And my experience is that if you don't pee in the pot, the smell is not really that bad.
 

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I am not sure how this got posted in the trip planner forum, sorry! Would someone with the power mind moving it to gear talk? Thanks.

I am planning on some trips next summer where I might be the only raft, so it appears that I am going to have to equip my boat with a proper groover instead of mooching. I have searched and read the past groover threads, and it seems that there is some inconsistency in what is or isn't passable for a groover on various river sections.

It sounds like the Eco-safe is pretty universally acceptable, but it is a bit on the pricey side for occasional use. On the other hand, the old rocket box and WAGG bag set up is not acceptable on rivers that require a "washable and reusable" system.

The ones that I am not sure about are essentially the home-made washable reusable type, either adding an RV cleanout to a rocket box lid, or to a gamma lid for a 5 gallon bucket. This seems like a lower cost alternative to the Eco-safe, that would still pass muster at the put in?

These seem ideal because they would allow for the use of a WAGG bag on short trips that allow them in order to avoid the trip to the dump station, while still OK for trips on Ruby/Horsethief, Desolation, and Westwater. Does anyone have any experience with either of these solutions in terms of getting the go ahead from NPS,BLM,etc. at the put in?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and experiences
I did a one boat trip and tried to use a five gallon bucket with a gamma lid at Westwater this spring and was told no by the rangers. I even sealed the lid on with caulking making it leak proof. We had some wag bags and were allowed to launch.
 

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The managers are stupid with respect to WAGG bags. They are so much less manky than rocket boxes, eco safe, or any other system that has you sitting on 5-day old fermented crap. I don't mind, but I would bet that compliance is better with WAGG bags than with other systems. By compliance, I mean people not sneaking off behind a bush.
 

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I don't get the Wag Bag thing. Whaddaya just squat down and poop into a bag? How is that possibly better than the Ecosafe system or just going directly into a rocket box? What do you do with the used Wag Bags when your done? Stick them in the cooler?

I would just go with the Ecosafe. It gives you a nice comfortable place to sit and the thing is super easy to clean out. I use it all the time for remote car camping too.
 

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I don't get the Wag Bag thing. Whaddaya just squat down and poop into a bag? How is that possibly better than the Ecosafe system or just going directly into a rocket box? What do you do with the used Wag Bags when your done? Stick them in the cooler?
i have a clean rocket box (never had direct poop to box contact) that i open up and place the wag bag inside. use a little bit of duct tape to secure the bag around the rim, place the seat on top, and go to town. then when done with the bag, take the tape off the rocket box and use it to securely seal the bag. leave the used bag in the bottom of the rocket box, and just place a new one in on top of it at your next camp spot.

this way you are never exposed to more than day old poop. the poop in the bag still smells a bit, but nowhere near as bad as an ecosafe.
 

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WAG Bags

A main reason that some places don't allow WAG Bags is that if the bags are stored in an unsecured, or poorly secured, trash container (which is relatively common after everybody is wasted and passed out) animals will get a hold of them and tear them open and spread poo all over the place. They'll do the same in a dumpster at the takeout. Anybody that has seen a dog get into a dirty diaper bin has seen this mess.
 

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A main reason that some places don't allow WAG Bags is that if the bags are stored in an unsecured, or poorly secured, trash container (which is relatively common after everybody is wasted and passed out) animals will get a hold of them and tear them open and spread poo all over the place. They'll do the same in a dumpster at the takeout. Anybody that has seen a dog get into a dirty diaper bin has seen this mess.

The argument could be brought up against ECO systems as well. You just have the lid on top... the smell still gets out to attract the animals.
 

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Cheapest, most universally accepted method, is the virgin rocket box. Yup, Eco-safe's are pretty nice and convenient and accepted almost everywhere. But you can pick up a couple rocket boxes for about $40.....you can't use them for anything else afterwards....but you have a groover system.

The wag-bag IN the rocket box isn't accepted in a lot of places. The ranger at Westy told me once that if he found us doing that it would be a big ticket.....and I'm sure elsewhere it would be as well.

So, to err on the side of caution, drop about $40 on two cans....crap directly in them, and deal with the clean-up.....it's not that bad.

It's the cheapest, most accepted.
 

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The wag-bag IN the rocket box isn't accepted in a lot of places. The ranger at Westy told me once that if he found us doing that it would be a big ticket.....and I'm sure elsewhere it would be as well.

thats the one thing i really dont understand... if a plain rocket box is ok, then how can adding a wag bag make it not ok? what about a wag bag inside an ecosafe?

as long as all the shit stays in the sealed/sealable box then whats the big deal??
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Yeah, the wag bags are nice. I have used them with pails and rocket boxes, and just sealed up the bag and left it in the box, deploying another one on top of it for the next day. Seems unlikely that a bear or something could get into a sealed rocket box. But, rules are rules, and I don't want an unpleasant visit from a ranger and big ticket to harsh a river trip.

Too bad that the gamma lid and bucket are not accepted. That would be a nice lightweight solution, and there are cheap pre-made mounts available from ranch supply stores that are for mounting buckets to a fence as an animal feeder.

So, it sounds like the virgin rocket box is as universally accepted as the Eco-safe? Or put another way, has anyone ever been turned down, or given a hard time at inspection for using a rocket box alone?

Finally (and forgive me for the following stupid question), does anyone have any tips and hints on the process of emptying a rocket box into an RV dump station? I have been rather fortunate to avoid that lovely process so far, but, if I opt not to spring for the eco-safe, next spring will be my turn.
 

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thats the one thing i really dont understand... if a plain rocket box is ok, then how can adding a wag bag make it not ok? what about a wag bag inside an ecosafe?

as long as all the shit stays in the sealed/sealable box then whats the big deal??
Even though Wag Bags are biodegradable, they are very hard to remove from the bottom of pit toilets like they have at the put in and take out to Westwater. People tend to dump their rocket boxes and/or buckets of crap into said toilets at the end of trips. If you allowed plastic bags like Wag Bags.....that's where they would end up......sometimes in the recycle or trash containers to boot. Cleaning up that shit ain't no fun.
 

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Yeah, the wag bags are nice. I have used them with pails and rocket boxes, and just sealed up the bag and left it in the box, deploying another one on top of it for the next day. Seems unlikely that a bear or something could get into a sealed rocket box. But, rules are rules, and I don't want an unpleasant visit from a ranger and big ticket to harsh a river trip.

Too bad that the gamma lid and bucket are not accepted. That would be a nice lightweight solution, and there are cheap pre-made mounts available from ranch supply stores that are for mounting buckets to a fence as an animal feeder.

So, it sounds like the virgin rocket box is as universally accepted as the Eco-safe? Or put another way, has anyone ever been turned down, or given a hard time at inspection for using a rocket box alone?

Finally (and forgive me for the following stupid question), does anyone have any tips and hints on the process of emptying a rocket box into an RV dump station? I have been rather fortunate to avoid that lovely process so far, but, if I opt not to spring for the eco-safe, next spring will be my turn.
Rain gear, playtex living gloves and a stick.
 

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Finally (and forgive me for the following stupid question), does anyone have any tips and hints on the process of emptying a rocket box into an RV dump station? I have been rather fortunate to avoid that lovely process so far, but, if I opt not to spring for the eco-safe, next spring will be my turn.

Yeah,you just gotta suck it up and get ready to get punched by some rotten ass. Rubber gloves(disposable) and one of those (also disposable) facemasks works nicely. Line that with some nice Sage and a fragrant scent is your reward. Or drive it to Idaho and use one of their lovely Scat Machines...

Make sure you use the stuff that breaks down the poop. The enzymes collaborate and shiit! You want it fairly liquified. A big solid chunk of dump in there makes it not drain well. Hold that bitch upside down,shake and let gravity do its work. Helps to spray water in there too. Last time i emptied one it took several cycles: Turn upside down,shake vigorously,turn right side up and spray water in and REPEAT.

Now lets agree to all use Eco-safe and never speak of wag bags again.
 

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I believe the park service requires the "re-usable" systems so that you have a monetary investment tied up into it, and therefore are less likely to just leave the poop/tank somewhere instead of taking it with you and cleaning it up. (I read this somewhere on the NPS or RRFW website.) This makes sense, but they still allow a plain rocket box, I guess it is a much more permenant setup than a plastic bucket so it has more value to the owner...or they allow it because it has been in use succesfully for so long? Anyhow, a Wagg user could easily just ditch the bags anywhere he pleases, rather than having to take the poop stuck to the bottom of the rocket box somewhere to clean it properly and re-use it. Don't know if it makes complete sense, but it made it a bit clearer when I read that.

Also, for dumping check out the highway rest stops (if you are interstate traveling), I've found that many of them have free RV dump stations.
 

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thats the one thing i really dont understand... if a plain rocket box is ok, then how can adding a wag bag make it not ok? what about a wag bag inside an ecosafe?

as long as all the shit stays in the sealed/sealable box then whats the big deal??
Yup, I hear ya....it's because a bunch of D-bags ruined it for everyone else by throwing their wags in the dumpster and/or pit-toilet at the take out.....rangers and trash peeps had to deal with cleaning up a lot of nasty's.

POOP SOUP.....very important.....with just about any system. BEFORE you leave the river, open that thing up and fill it with water.....especially if it's been in there for a few days. The travel time to the dumping station will shake it all up and lessen stickage. NAAAASTY!!! I've made the mistake of forgetting and paid the price.

Gotta love it....here we are in early winter talking about the best way to crap in a can.
 

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Gotta love it....here we are in early winter talking about the best way to crap in a can.
Agreed, you know you are bored at work when you are scheming on where to poop 6 months from now...

Thanks for the poop soup suggestion. Between that and some chemicals to help break everything down, and sufficient PPE, it sounds acceptable. I think that after I designate the official groover rocket box, I will line the interior with that paint on water barrier stuff for shower enclosures in hopes of further reducing sticking issues.
 

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OK...now for my stupidity. I have a coyote toilet. It's never been shot down by a ranger. It's way lighter than a eco-safe (although I usually don't care about weight). I love it as much as you can love a groover. (Weird...I know.) Having been around rivers for too long, I know the rule about don't pee in the groover. I've always been told that it was because of weight or it fills up to fast. (this is where my stupidity kicks in) I'm ok with people peeing in it (when accompanied by a bowel movement). My theory is that it keeps it a little more towards the liquid end of things (although it does still make the poo mountain). I can't say as I have ever noticed it getting fuller faster. Am I an idoit? (or maybe I should say "How much of an idiot am I?"
 
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