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These are the instructions on the board. They would be hard pressed to find a more confusing way to write them. I doublechecked with the USFS employee at Little Hole when I signed up a week in advance to make sure I had done everything correctly and they said I was all good.

It might be worth calling the USFS office and getting a detailed verification of the exact sign up process.
 

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infinite-point weighted lottery, administered entirely in-house by DOI or USDA. Fail to apply one year, lose 3 preference points. No transferable points. No alternate TL's. No private profits for corporate special interests. Agencies keep all funding in-corridor to pay for rangers (including LEO) and important habitat maintenance projects (no goddamn wi-fi installations, asphalt, or city park style amenities). All the money, straight to the natural resource and the people who protect it. The strict, weighted part of the lottery awards those who are committed and passionate, weeds out the goofballs, poachers, and entitled camp-stealers. I also believe in a "dedicated boater" program (UT does this for Hunters), where boaters can volunteer as ramp hosts or on maintenance projects to be rewarded with lottery preference points.

No one above GS-9 is entertaining these ideas, because they're not in the manual.
The problem with preference points is that it pretty much guarantees you have to wait forever to get a permit, especially with no cap on points. I like that the Grand Canyon lottery is capped at 5 points.

I'm not sure the volume of traffic on B section would warrant a full on lottery. I'd rather see a few small incremental changes that would probably naturally winnow down the user base, like requiring fire pans, groovers, ash can, etc.

Something like a dedicated boater program would be way beyond the capabilities of the Forest Service or BLM to implement. I'm not sure it would work well at the state level either. For hunting you have an entire state division, Fish and Game) dedicated to enforcement, management, etc. There is no equivalent body to manage boaters.

Here in Idaho, our state department of Parks and Rec are definitely not capable of implementing and managing this type of boater program, and trying to loop them into the equation would be a HUGE mistake. The less government involvement in regulating boating the better. Look at what is happening to boating on Bear Trap canyon with the state's involvement. They are trying to implement all kinds of idiotic rules and restrictions.
 

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July seems like the only month where the sites are fully booked up. I don’t think it’s anywhere near busy enough to warrant a point system that would basically make it impossible for casual boaters to ever get a campsite.
 

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Personally, I much prefer no system at all. First-come-first-served, don't you dare ask me where I'm camping.

But, in the face of users demanding opportunity and claiming unfairness, agencies will turn to lottery systems (barf). Conventional no-point lottery systems like rec.gov in Dinosaur NP have 2.7% success rate (what I remember being told by NPS at a UGO conference in 2017). I think if we get forced in that direction, weighted is the way to go. The fun part is, we do have numbers to compare from various systems, and the math doesn't lie.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
@mcfarrel I for sure left my homemade laminated maps on the kitchen table when I loaded up and left... That's on me for sure. I figured I could grab another one in Dutch John or at the board, and I couldn't seem to come by one. Knowing that the camps in this corridor were maintained I wasn't super concerned with missing it. I can assure you though that every camp was in fact taken last Saturday, and the lackadaisical approach of mine in looking for the open camp did not pan out. The group that was in our spot could have been in the same boat that we were in as well, and the poaching may have been a domino effect. Heck, I was going to poach an open one if found with the thought process we were the last crew still floating on the river that evening.

The bulk of the ill will was for my comic relief as my humor is self serving, but more specifically the shuttle / trailer and wrap issue. That would suck for anyone for sure, and I don't really wish them harm or being stranded. The delta of my comments stand though :sneaky:

The comment that a group may have not understood the regulations is not an excuse IMO. That thought process hasn't ever gotten me out of trouble when I was ignorant to the law.

I should have imported all of the campsites into my GPS, but unfortunately did not. I only had my camps I was eyeballing for my previous highwater trip earlier in the season drop pinned because I was concerned on missing the landings as the river was easily 10-20' out of it's banks my first float through that section. I have had anxiety the two times I've floated that section in planning / hoping to get a campsite. I think next time if I'm not floating through Gates I'll just plan on day tripping sections, and be pleasantly surprised if the board has an open spot, with the now knowledge that it is easy to push two sections even at lower water for a worst case scenario.

I don't think wreck.gov is the answer as I have disdain for that setup like everyone else, but the current system favors the locals / guides / outfitters for sure which I'm not sure I agree with either. Maybe an electronic corridor specific sign up board is warranted. It may eliminate some of the potential for erasing someone's name who signed up, even the playing field a bit compared to the local advantage, and allow for groups to plan accordingly a tad better for their camping accommodations. The flip side is I could see the locals argument for the current system, as the reservation system in CO. at some locations in my backyard has chapped my ass well when I can't just seem to go for a hike on a whim anymore.

It was nice to see so many groups enjoying the river corridor, and as a result the full camps. Everyone was extremely nice that we spoke with, and everyone seemed to be concerned for others experience while on the river as well!

That area is awesome, and I fully plan on enjoying / exploring it further in the seasons to come, and understand why it is a popular area for sure! In fact I'm working on planning a family get together out that direction next season so I can get all of my little nieces / nephews on the river, and fish with my grandfather at least one more time. We will be planning on day floats for that extravaganza... nieces peeing in sleeping bags was rough the last time I went camping with them as they are all younger!

Last weekend's outing though made me seriously wonder what the Upper C will look like in years to come as they work towards instituting some type of system in that corridor. I've been skunked in that area as well on first come sites and have made the day trip from Pumphouse to Catamount, but have also had great outings where the stars aligned.
 

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-1 for entirely first come first serve. It's a several hour drive to get there and knowing there's reserved (one of those on rec.gov) makes it better - way better. It's nice to take time to fish the A section at a leisurely pace without stressing about having to go fast so we don't miss out on a camp. Upgrade in technology at little hole would be helpful for the FF sites. Instead of a whiteboard, have an electronic sign/screen that you enter your reservations into once you pay your camp fee. Shows name on screen & there's no way to erase a name and claim ignorance.
 

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-1 for entirely first come first serve. It's a several hour drive to get there and knowing there's reserved (one of those on rec.gov) makes it better - way better. It's nice to take time to fish the A section at a leisurely pace without stressing about having to go fast so we don't miss out on a camp. Upgrade in technology at little hole would be helpful for the FF sites. Instead of a whiteboard, have an electronic sign/screen that you enter your reservations into once you pay your camp fee. Shows name on screen & there's no way to erase a name and claim ignorance.
-1 for entirely first come first serve. It's a several hour drive to get there and knowing there's reserved (one of those on rec.gov) makes it better - way better. It's nice to take time to fish the A section at a leisurely pace without stressing about having to go fast so we don't miss out on a camp. Upgrade in technology at little hole would be helpful for the FF sites. Instead of a whiteboard, have an electronic sign/screen that you enter your reservations into once you pay your camp fee. Shows name on screen & there's no way to erase a name and claim ignorance.
Maybe another thread to start, but like Sergent Schultz said, the upper C is going to be " Very Interesting " if they ever go through with it, ??? what's it been 6-7 yrs now.
 

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These are the instructions on the board. They would be hard pressed to find a more confusing way to write them. I doublechecked with the USFS employee at Little Hole when I signed up a week in advance to make sure I had done everything correctly and they said I was all good.

It might be worth calling the USFS office and getting a detailed verification of the exact sign up process.
What's the deal on there with Big Pine I and II? It looks like the same person has both camps reserved for over a week solid?
 

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Pretty standard for big pine its a big shaded 2x camp with good wade fishing down washboard and pretty easy access back upstream to trails end and grasshopper island and all the water back up to the terrace pool.
or why would you pay more to camp in town and do day floats when you can fish an empty boat outta and into camp
float as far as you want on the c or go back up to the dam and run an A
run your shuttles in the heat of the day and put back in late for the evening caddis hatch after all the B day trippers are done
Back in the y2k days there was a push to limit launches
all guides/outfitters had trip ticket books both for commercial and fun floats that needed to git filled out
Rangers actually floated the river enforced rules and gear requirements and sent boats down to tend the camps
the dotcom and housing bubble burst and Dagget county has no funds fixed that.
Why would you need a required firepan when theres a fire pit at every camp on the b and most of the c and at the end of the day you either take your turds or you fail and leave em.
Which is why the 2 little hole camps got closed
The system has its flaws but has worked for decades for those who know what theyre doing
and not floating by their camp which very well could have been occupied by guides having lunch or taking a break
Pretty straight forward either reserve one of the 6 from wreck.gov or show up and claim an open camp pay and keep your receipt
Seems pretty simple and it is.
Never heard nor seen anybody's name/reservation get erased. Have seen people camp next to or between camps but its pretty much blm land.
Western took a bit of well-deserved heat for claiming grasshooper for a month as they should
but paying $13 bucks a day is way cheaper than paying the swamper to buck camp so theyre gaming the system
theres an old defunk camp river left before red creek that used to be called backwater if ya find yourself in that position again.
 

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dedicated boater program would be way beyond the capabilities of the Forest Service or BLM to implement
In fact, many of the popular river trips in Utah have informal volunteer service efforts already within either State, BLM, or NPS orbits. It really wouldn't be that hard to formalize those if bureaucracy would get out of it's own way and do the work.
 

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Why would you need a required firepan when theres a fire pit at every camp on the b and most of the c...
Well, for one thing how do you think those fire rings get emptied of ash and garbage? They're not self cleaning.

Those fire rings out to be ripped out, and they need to implement leave no trace. They're nothing but garbage magnets.
 

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Yes. Showing up the week before to claim a camp is just as bad as poaching, IMO.
The sign-up board is a rolling 2 week calendar..I'm not sure how signing up for a date a week out when there is a 2 week reservation window is at all like poaching. The "Do not register more than 2 days prior" only applies to the online-reservable sites that have the asterisk next to them.
 

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Yes. Showing up the week before to claim a camp is just as bad as poaching, IMO.
You're crazy... being able to sign up for camps a week in advance is nothing like poaching. I do feel that the outfitters should also be limited to the 3 day camping limit in the B section or have to get special permits and pay significantly more to use a camp in this section.

Signing up for 3 nights on rec.gov to then only spend the last night in the camp is as bad or worse than poaching... people are doing this on the green and at ruby. If you're going to physically put in the work to ensure you have a camp more power to you but if you're going to do it from the comfort of your home and then prevent others from accessing the river that's a problem.

p.s.
@jeffro I love your signature!
 
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